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George Rebane

Is the Great Divide already under way?  RR readers are familiar with the Great Divide discussion in these pages (RR search ‘great divide’).  The basis for the idea of a structural change in these United States is an old one, one that is provided for by our Constitution, and one that was in lively national discussion even before The War for Southern Independence (aka The Civil War).  Today the debate has again become compelling due to the seemingly irreconcilable polarization between the factions of the Left and those of the Right.

BoeingNLRB One ‘solution’, to the indisputable fact that both sides live in their own universe, is a peaceful separation of the two cohorts into a confederated assembly of the current states.  One that would enable open practice of limited government, Founders’ constitutionality, fiscal prudence, and free markets.  The other would continue the current collectivist path to socialism and whatever may follow that folly.  The actual division of territories is among the several problems that need a good-faith dialogue to solve peaceably.

Another and perhaps more serious problem is the asymmetry with which both sides view the Great Divide.  The people on the Right see themselves in a growing bondage of restraints, constraints, unlimited taxation, and loss of liberties.  Their general response is ‘let us go our own way.’  The Left’s general response is ‘oh no you don’t!’, the direct implication being that they would then very quickly run out of OPM, the fuel that always powers progressivism.

But for completeness, I have to add that there are a few progressives who firmly believe that their social order does not need money from other people; they can generate the necessary wealth themselves.  In fact, some of them even claim that it is the Left that is generating the country’s wealth and dragging along the worthless Right.  (Such progressives should be complemented for their keen insight, and the conversation taken to the next stage of how the Great Divide can remove from them the burden of having to carry the Right.)

A useful path toward the Great Divide is the re-establishment of states’ rights.  Removing such constitutional rights from the states has been a proto-progressive passion at least from the time of Lincoln.  Many recognize that the expansion of the Interstate Commerce Act (1887) and central banking (Federal Reserve 1913) have been the prime tools for reducing states to administrative districts of a strong federal government.

Today a last bastion of states’ rights is how they divide themselves into ‘right to work’ and ‘forced union’ states.  For all intents and purposes this already is a step toward the Great Divide, with the proviso that, if properly handled, such a divide may not even be necessary.  But here’s the rub.  The Left is lying to all ignorant enough to believe them that not forcing workers to join unions is actually denying workers their rights.  This twisted logic is one of the insane pillars upon which collectivism proudly stands.


By every measure available, states that allow workers to freely join unions (or not) have out-performed those whose governments use the gun to force union membership.  For that reason companies like Boeing have been actively migrating the growth parts of their business to states where workers are free to choose.  And the unions, correctly sensing a seminal danger to their survival, are pulling out all the stops and paying the right politicians and bureaucrats to bring the full force of government to stop such dangerous actions by America’s corporations.  Laffer and Moore detail these goings on in the 13may11 WSJ (‘Boeing and the Union Berlin Wall’) from where the nearby graphic is purloined.

The hope here is that most Americans have yet to join the ranks of the entitled sheeple, and will see that such union tactics benefit neither them nor the nation.  In the interval Obama’s administration and the Democrats are throwing the National Labor Relations Board into the breach to tell Boeing where it can and cannot build its airplanes.  This is a first, and would mark a giant step forward in the socialization of America.  And, of course, it further motivates those of us on the Right to permanently shed the looney tunes and merrie melodies of the Left.

My feeling is that this is just the beginning of such debates as the Right-leaning states begin to flex their atrophied muscles.  What will power the division is the fiscal hurricane that will soon sweep the land.  Citing an avalanche of references, Mauldin and Tepper (Endgame) point out that we are past the tipping point.  Most of the world’s governments are in terrible fiscal shape and have only “bad and worse choices” consisting of inflate, default, or devalue (a form of inflation).   These governments, including the US, “simply lack the ability to fulfill” their debt, entitlement, and pension obligations.

Having passed the tipping point, the only unknown is how we will hit bottom.  Will it be a repeat of Weimar 1923, Brazil 1999, Argentina 2001, Iceland 2008, or something more draconian that involves restructuring the government or the nation itself?  The known part is that both the Right and the Left will do all they can to convince Americans that it was the other side that caused all the damage, and that fundamental changes to governance must be made if we are to avert a similar disaster.  And depending on the extent of the damage, one of those changes might well be a form of The Great Divide.

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458 responses to “An Eerie Feeling re the Great Divide”

  1. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    I am thankful that our form of governance provides for peaceful revolution (divide). I wholeheartedly agree that “A useful path toward the Great Divide is the re-establishment of states’ rights.”- see 10th Amendment. How glorious it would be to witness the increase (restoration) of liberty as “Right-leaning states begin to flex their atrophied muscles;” if even it were only a few states. The most likely divide will arise from right leaning states returning to pro-liberty policies further to the right while leftist states will continue to rely on the BS that is Keynesian econ, central planning and entitlements.

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  2. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Right on!

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  3. Russ Steele Avatar

    OK right winger conservatives, here is the current list of right to work states:
    Alabama | Arizona | Arkansas | Florida | Georgia | Guam | Idaho | Iowa | Kansas | Louisiana | Mississippi | Nebraska | Nevada | North Carolina | North Dakota | Oklahoma |South Carolina | South Dakota | Tennessee | Texas | Utah | Virginia | Wyoming
    Here is a graphical view, click on the state and the graph will take you to the individual Right to Work law. I just wish that Wyoming had better winter weather. Maybe summer in Wyoming or Idaho and winter in Arizona.

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  4. Russ Steele Avatar

    Walter Russell Mead has some thoughts on our current position
    in this article: Establishment Blues:
    I don’t want to make this a habit, and I suspect he doesn’t either, but Paul Krugman and I are once again in (very) partial agreement. We both think the American elite has intellectually and morally lost its way, and we agree that the problems our country faces today have more to do with elite breakdown than popular stupidity. We locate the blame somewhat differently within that elite; Krugman splits the blame between George W. Bush and the economic policy makers of the Clinton/Obama administrations. I think the rot goes deeper and has spread out more widely. But the United States today — in both parties, in the corporate and business worlds, in academia and among the intelligentsia, in religion and in many other fields — does not have the strong and thoughtful leadership that we need.” . . .
    The American people aren’t perfect yet and never will be — but by the standards that matter to the Establishment, this is the best prepared, most open minded and most socially liberal generation in history. Unsatisfactory as the American people may be from the standpoints of Georgetown and Manhattan, this is as good as it gets. Abraham Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt and Harry Truman could only dream of the kind of sophisticated and cosmopolitan understanding that folks in Peoria have now compared to the old days.
    The American people are less prejudiced, more globally aware and more willing to meet other cultures and societies halfway than ever before. Minorities today are better protected in law and more fairly treated by the public than ever in our history. No previous generation has been as determined to give women a fair chance in life, or to attack the foul legacy of racism. The American people have never been as religiously tolerant as they are today, as concerned about the environment, or more willing to make sacrifices around the world to promote the peace and well being of humanity as a whole.
    By contrast, we have never had an Establishment that was so ill-equipped to lead. It is the Establishment, not the people, that is falling down on the job.

    OK, it the people are in charge, we need to create and appoint the leaders that are going to foster the Great Divide.

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  5. wmartin Avatar
    wmartin

    3..2..1…and somebody will jump in with statistics ‘proving’ that Blue states make more money than Red states.
    while ignoring the high likelihood that most of that money was made via FIRE activities in urban areas and thus put us all in the soup.
    The primary relationship I see between Red vs. Blue areas is that of the colonial power vs. the colony. It’s all about resource extraction and political power. At least imperial England was capable of producing manufactured goods, the modern American city seems better suited to pushing paper (and getting a bit of vigorish).

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  6. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    George, for someone who is promoting states rights you sure wimped out by not supporting Prop 19. In my opinion that was a clear expression of states rights. California voters substantially voted to allow medical marijuana use but the feds still chose to trump the states with their random enforcement of the federal law. I believe you opposed 19 because it was “messy” when it came to confronting the feds.

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  7. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    At the town hall meeting at the Rood Center last month, I was struck by the sharp division of opinion to the point that I could discern no amount agreement on anything other than a bit of general bonhomie. Most of what the left brought up was based on nonsense, but they firmly believed it and that is all that matters. As I walked away, an acquaintance of mine approached me and asked what I thought of the whole discussion. I told him we were, as a country, so badly divided on reality and general tenets of governance, that I saw no hope in moving forward. The idea that we can compromise is a sad fairy tail of the naive middle-left and a cynical ploy of the hard left. Conservatives know that compromise is merely a speed control on the final approach to doom. The tiller will not budge one degree with compromise. The problem with the conservative answer is that is not ready to deal with the mayhem and bloodshed that would follow a return to Constitutional values. There really are a couple of generations of illiterate and helpless humans in this country that would starve to death in the middle of a well stocked farm and drown in a one foot deep puddle with out direct govt aid.
    What to do? I know in which direction lies my freedom and prosperity but what of the others in this nation that seek destruction? The coming national election will be instructive.

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  8. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    Thanks George, I needed that to amp me out for the weekend.
    Here Paul, pass this around to your friends so they can learn what we already know.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e53diZ0vboM&feature=related

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  9. Russ Steele Avatar

    Dave,
    Thanks, now I know why our local left has a hard time dealing with facts. They have been programed by their teacher to reject facts in favor of their feelings. I can see how disruptive it will be for the left, once the Tea Party Patriots adopt a school program is fully implemented. I predict there will be cultural clash that will soon become open warfare.

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  10. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    When the left is starving in the cities because they have regulated the farmers and the truckers into oblivion (for environmental purity, whatever that is), we can only hope they then come to the table. The problem is we on the right have to drag these people along even though they hate us because we have the knowledge they don’t about the consequences of their actions. It is kind of like Joe Biden’s support of the War in Iraq. Until his son became a soldier and went there, he was not a fan. But even he got real when his blood was in jeopardy. So until the left is starving and the neighborhood Starbucks close, these lovelies will be our political enemies.

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  11. Mike Thornton Avatar

    Russ, you guys on the right declared “open warfare” on your political. social and economic enemies a long time ago, the difference is that they have finally woken up to that fact and are starting to fight back.
    Let’s face it guys, your policy models have failed in every way and on every level possible.
    You realize (of course) that if the country to actually divide, the states that were run on a progressive, social-democratic philosophy would likely have as their highest cost, dealing with the flood of refugees, that would be streaming out of your so-called ‘right to work” states, since what they would really be is little kingdoms, populated by sweatshops, broken down infrastructure, totally privatized services with glittering (and heavily guarded) gated compounds for the wealthy.
    I’m sure there will be entertainment available as well, perhaps even community book burning and the “Two Minute Hate” as well as enforced Evangelical Christianity and public loyalty oaths.
    On the other hand the “Progressive States of America”, would be prioritizing quality education, 22st century infrastructure, protecting the environment, organic agriculture, quality employment and workplace safety along with a living wage, religious freedom and social equity.
    These things can all be done and that’s based on “facts” Russ, not “feelings”!
    As usual, the problem is that because you guys have no vision and are only concerned with what you can milk out of today for yourselves and the people that you decided are deserving, we can’t get anywhere. This is because you (as I stated previously) started a program of “open warfare” quite some time ago, to make sure it doesn’t happen.
    So, if the question is: “Has the time come to split up the United States of America into smaller entities and let them go their separate ways?” I say the answer is a resounding “Yes!”
    And on another note, if the people of this or any other community allow the “Tea Party” to start “propagandizing” (and that’s exactly what it is!) school children, without demanding and getting equal access and time, all hell needs to break loose!

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  12. George Rebane Avatar

    Thank you MikeT. I didn’t know who on the Left would contribute the corroborative Exhibit A to this post, but there it is.

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  13. RL Crabb Avatar

    Question: Will there be a bounty on hippies? Will you need to produce a scalp to collect?

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  14. George Rebane Avatar

    Bob, my best guess is that hippies will drift toward the Progressive States, and you would have to ask them of their policies toward such vagabonds. But if it will be anything like the USSR, then yes, there will be a bounty on such folks, and not much more than a denounciation will be required to send them into the gulag – shirkers were dealt with harshly.

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  15. Mike Thornton Avatar

    In this matter I agree with you George.
    Clearly we both think that the others position is (at best) incorrect and that’s fine.
    The more important part of the issue is that because the country, for all intents and purposes, is pretty much equally divided and equally entrenched (though I do believe that the “progressives” have a little catching up to do, when it comes to understanding the true nature of the fight) neither side can get anywhere and we spend all of our time fighting other. This gets us nowhere and in fact the US as a whole is collapsing into becoming a second rate nation with a first class war machine (for now).
    While I only partially agree with him, it’s one of the things I respect about Ron Paul, in that he has clearly said that the people of this country need to have a clear and meaningful dialog/debate about what we want. Part of that discussion needs to be whether there’s a way to work things out and live together or have a peaceable divorce.

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  16. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Don’t be fooled, in the Great Divide, if there is to be one, the right will enslave the residents of the “Progressive State’, take its product, destroy its culture, and claim it as their own. They will act as the social Darwinists that they are.
    History shows us that the proponents of separation are the totalitarians, and the proponents of secular inclusion are the democrats, small d.
    We are the patriots; proponents of the Divide are a threat to the nation, our traditions, our principles, our liberties and our future.

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  17. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    Thanks Mike – as I pointed out, we are just too badly divided. Your wild imagination is quite a treat. The left has run the education system for decades and what do we have to show for it? The left claims the free market doesn’t work, but there is no free market.
    “enforced Evangelical Christianity”??? How does that work? And where do you see that being attempted? If you want a meaningful dialogue/debate, you’ll have to come up with something a bit more fact-based. I would love to have a dialogue about what we want. I want freedom and liberty – you?

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  18. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    The left is brain dead regarding freedom. They think government needs to tell everyone how to live and what is allowed whereas we on the right want to leave it to the individual (with minimal government intrusion). Our strategy has worked better because America became the greatest place in history. The lefts best example of their nirvana, the USSR has gone the way of the dodo bird, and after only 70 years and millions of its own citizens murdered.
    Thornton is the best example of why the divide exists. He doesn’t even acknowledge his ilk has taken over and run the education system over the last 40 years r so. He refuses to look at his beliefs in any critical way, it is always the other guys fault. Frisch appears to also eat the hand that feeds him. His cynical view is very scary for our country. While taking the hard earned money of the ditch digger he then slams the ditch digger because he may be a individual thinker and a conservative. I find the attitude of these leftwingnut scofflaws very troubling. So, yes, there is a divide, but in my desires of divide, I only want to defeat the leftwing trash ideology with my vote, not a separation of my country.

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  19. Barry Pruett Avatar

    I have been trying to refrain from the blogs a little bit…but this comment struck a nerve.
    “History shows us that the proponents of separation are the totalitarians, and the proponents of secular inclusion are the democrats, small d.”
    So, the proponents of separation from England in the 18th centurt were totalitarians? You are kidding, right? I have to be misunderstanding your point.
    “We are the patriots; proponents of the Divide are a threat to the nation, our traditions, our principles, our liberties and our future.”
    I am sorry Steve, but the threat to our liberties are liberals. Any person that thinks that government should control the means of production (telling Boening where they can build their airplanes) is a liberal (aka socialist). History has clearly and unequivoically shown that socialism is the single greatest threat to freedom and liberty in the world. I have seen it first hand…I really do not need to see it here.

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  20. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    “History shows us that the proponents of separation are the totalitarians.”
    Correct Steve, like taking our moral biblical teaching out of the classroom through the separation of church and state argument. Though it’s most likely a waste of time, you should watch the above linked video. It will help you to understand what has been done to you. One step to the right Steve and you can find salvation through conservatism. We await you brother!

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  21. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    Russ said: “…Tea Party Patriots adopt a school program…”
    What a great idea!
    We should start with deprogramming and move to classes in original thought.

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  22. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Barry, lefties can not help themselves. The always expose their beliefs even after lying for years.

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  23. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    D. King–it would be a cold day in Hell before I join you guys. Your principles are greedy, power hungry, purely self-interest motivated, intolerant, amoral tripe.
    Barry–The overwhelming majority of ‘liberals’ in America are not proponents of state ownership of the means of production, which is the definition of socialism. For you to paint ‘liberals’ as proponents of state ownership is a lie. Liberals are proponents of balancing the power of oligarchies and monopolies with the power of the state when necessary. For you to portray that as socialism shows your fundamental misunderstanding of political economy and the founding principles of this nation.
    I have on several occasions stated clearly an un-equivically here that I believe property rights are a fundamental foundation of our liberties. Your buddies here seek to ignore that, and paint the world black and white.
    You want to propose a ‘divide’ George? You want a world where you can be with people who think like you, look like you, worship like you, hold to the same principles–go back to eastern Europe. That is a European concept, not an American concept.
    In order to separate you would by definition have to exclude–and that is tyranny.

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  24. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Wow, someone is off the meds this morning. Barry is absolutely right about liberals. They want government control of everyone else except themselves of course. They tried this in the USSR and it failed. In China, they are starting to wise up and are heading fast for capitalism and freedom. Even in the liberals favorite place, Cuba, the Castro’s are starting to realize their people are worse off because the commies held the power. Even Europe and Canada having experimented with socialism, are now heading back to capitalism. I would be mad too if I was a devoted lefty like Frisch. His world is crumbling all around him. Soon, grants and loans to non profits that do political chicanery will be devoid of money. Not too soon for my taste. The eco nuts and liberals never look in the mirror for the reason they should. They just comb what is left of their hair and never ask themselves “why are our ranks shrinking and the world’s people rejecting us”. Well, the reason is simple, we believe in freedom, liberals believe in government.

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  25. Barry Pruett Avatar

    Steve…where to start? I will pick the most important. “Liberals are proponents of balancing the power of oligarchies and monopolies with the power of the state when necessary.”
    Monopolies are created by either government intervention in the market (granting preference to one business over another) or criminal coercion (price fixing). So liberals are for balancing the power between the monopoly and the government that created the monopoly? That does not make any sense.
    Further, is not government coercion an indicia of state ownership of the means of production (i.e. NLRB v. Boeing)? There is no lie in any of my statements. It is the Truth; the Truth upon which this great nation was founded – liberty and freedom. Those who support the indicia of state ownership of the means of production do not want others to here the Truth. The class warfare game played by liberals is simply propaganda.

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  26. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Funny, I can’t help but notice that the map of the right to work states Russ posted up above, which by the way is the very same thing I sought out yesterday immediately upon reading this post, is an almost exact replica of the division in the country between the rebels and the Union (with the exception of the western states that were not in the Union yet, but would probably have broken substantively that way if if the popular sovereignty proposal in the Compromise of 1850 had stood).

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  27. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Barry, you made him speechless! He reverts to babbling about maps.

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  28. George Rebane Avatar

    This little piece of history is common to eastern Europe conquered by the Red Army. When the Soviets arrived in Estonia (Sep 1944), one of the first things they did was to instantly revamp the public school system into their program of “socialist (communist) indoctrination.” This was then led by the NKVD, predecessor to the KGB. As stated clearly in the video DaveK linked, the early educational investment in controlling a population was clear. Estonians did their best to counter USSR’s ‘education’ by concurrently homeschooling their children in the real history and culture of the country. Without such homeschooling in the communist invaded lands, the world would look very different today.
    After the war we were interred for almost four years in Geislingen, the UN’s displaced persons camp for Estonians in southern Germany. As a youngster I was addicted to listening to grown-ups’ conversation, and heard my father and others talk of (communist and Nazi) propaganda and indoctrination that they had witnessed in the last few years. They fully understood the ‘as the twig is bent …’ dictum of educating children. The first thing that the Estonian camp leadership set up was a school system in which I started my education.
    I recall the hastily written (and of poor material quality) schoolbooks on Estonian history and the role of the Russian bear that swallowed up whole nations during and after the war, Estonia included. Within the perspective of my overheard conversations, I was able to understand at an early age what these stories were intended to make me think. And I took them in as ground truth, primarily because they matched the ground truth of what, along with countless refugees, my parents, family, and I had just witnessed. And moreover, what the newspaper headlines continued to blare, especially after the Berlin airlift started (Spring 1948).
    But children don’t need corroborative reality in order to become wedded to ‘induced reality’. This is especially true in the parts of our lives where history and theories of social order inform. These are meta-areas that we don’t directly experience but, with appropriate authoritative sources nearby, can be constantly used to interpret the daily goings on to children whose resources and interest for further investigation are limited. And so, over the years a reality gets embedded, then calcified, and then valued as the working template through which ongoing observations and inputs are organized. To the degree that this Weltanschauung or world framework gives comfort, it will be defended fiercely by its owner.
    It is for that reason that a coherent culture is valuable to a sovereign nation-state. Assimilation into a consistent national narrative allowed multiple cultures to enter, build, and evolve the exceptional America that some of us remember and continue to celebrate. Today that common thread no longer intertwines and binds us. Starting with the Great Society, and its almost immediate control of national public education, we are already two generations removed from ‘E pluribus Unum.’

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  29. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Monopolies can be created by government intervention, in the case of intervention of behalf of corporate entities through tax policy, incentives and transfers of intellectual capital to the private sector such as the use of public funds to subsidize oil, gas an coal companies, for example; OR they can be created by lack of government intervention, such as an un-regulated markets allowing players to get so big that they can unfairly compete or undercut competition, fix prices, and drive competition out of the market, like Standard Oil did before Teddy Roosevelt broke them up. Once a monopoly is established, the monopolist can collude with others or form strategic alliances to maintain prices above the level of optimal economic efficiency, thus realizing unreasonable profits, such as a $11.6 billion quarterly profit for Exxon). Once the monopoly is established it is increasing difficult for new players to enter the market and for new technology to transform the market as monopolies squeeze out competition. This allows monopolies to engage in unfair allocation of the costs of doing business, such as not including the full costs of production (like pollution, un-fair labor practices, health care and other externalized costs) and thus realizing a lower production cost that they then benefit from. These externalized costs are born by the public, through taxes, public health consequences or the destruction of the commons (air, water, ecosystems, natural processes). But conservatives in America have consistently come down in favor on both sides of this equation for the corporation and against the citizen. Conservatives give tax breaks and incentives, if not outright cash, to the monopolist, and weaken regulation that could serve to protect the interests of the people, including small business.
    So, conservatives are for ceding power and control to corporation and gutting the ability of government to act as an effective counter balance.
    Clear to you now buddy?

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  30. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    Steve, with Obama Care, do you think you’re going to tell doctors where they have to live based on the needs of the system?
    …and please, no more original intent meaning from you!

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  31. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Finally, I think Mr. Pruitt you might take a lesson from none other than Adam Smith, who said;
    “Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy of good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse to it for the sake of self-defense. The truth of these observations have been proven countless times. The relationship between good management and competition applies to government and private monopolies, socialist and private entities, and remains true today. Fortunately, competition need not be anything close to “perfect” to provide incentives for good management and a cornucopia of other benefits.”
    So none other than Adam Smith recognizes that monopoly is an enemy, that open competition helps destroy monopolies and encourage good management, and that even an im’perfect’ market system, one that includes regulation, can be sufficient to provide the benefits that act as an incentive.
    That is the capitalism I support my friend.
    So, if we agree that monopolies are bad, how come Conservatives and the Republican Party, and now the Tea Party are consistently on the side of corporate monopoly and against the people?
    For those of you reading out there that are conservatives suffering a loss of quality of life I would ask you, what has 40 years of conservative power and counter attack on the New Deal got you?
    Your leaders are selling you a bill of goods; they say they are for your rights while stripping you of your liberty through the Patriot Act; they say they are for your livelihood while overseeing the greatest transfer of wealth in American history from the middle class to the elite though tax policy; they say they are for your children while stripping them of their future security by deconstructing every safety net they have, such as the planned destruction of Medicare.
    I’ll tell you what you conservative counter-revolution has got you, another year older and deeper in debt!

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  32. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Yes George the Red Army revamped the schools from Nazi intent to Communist intent…just so we are all clear about the origins of your theory about why a “coherent culture is valuable to a sovereign nation-state”.
    Fortunately, for those of us from the United States, who grew up with the theory that a nation composed of diverse residents, including Africans, Scots, Irish, Germans, Italians, Jews and even Estonians, could become a homogeneous one, growing stronger as many influences celebrate their origins but still be assimilated into a common culture.
    It is called “Americanism”.

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  33. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    George, did you ever eat at Vlado’s on Broad St. in Nevada City. (sadly closed now) He had a similar story from a Yugoslavian perspective. In fact, it’s amazing how similar.

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  34. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Todd, if you can’t keep up just drop out OK? No one will thing you are less of a man for it!

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  35. Larry Wirth Avatar
    Larry Wirth

    Sorry to be late guys!
    Mike T, you write some really silly things. For instance, the notion of economic refugees fleeing conservative states for progressive ones. It that what we’re actually seeing? Well, no, just the opposite.
    “Progressive education”? An oxymoron if there ever was one. Do you actually believe that today’s HS grad is, despite vastly improved access to information, truly better educated than his counterpart of the Sixties? SAT scores argue convincingly to the contrary, since they have been steadily declining for nearly 50 years now.
    Entertainment? Thank’s, I’ll pass on what currently passes for entertainment, From Hollywood’s current output, right down to what happened in the White House the other night.
    Book burnings” Is that why conservatives are vastly better read, on average, than progressives and usually own more books? Perhaps they read by the light of the burning of excess copies.
    22nd C. infrastructure? Like the high-speed rail line currently under construction between Fresno and Bakersfield which, even if completed, would have to rely on constant subsidy for all time.
    Organic agriculture? Good luck feeding the seven billion people on the planet with chicken manure and hand harvesting. Never mind ethanol.
    Go back and actually listen to Yuri Bezmenov, you may learn something.
    Steven, a champion of private property? What’s your take on the current Boeing dust-up? And where were your objections on the public takeover of Chrysler and GM. Odd how only Ford is making any kind of profit.
    As for oil profits, they are determined almost entirely by the pump price of gasoline as they are a percentage of sales. About $.07 per gallon right now, they’re but a fraction of what government is lifting from your pocket- $.88 per gallon nationally averaged.
    A bit like “big tobacco.” Governments at all levels make dozens of times more money via taxation than the tobacco companies. And if smoking is so bad for people, why does the gov have no compunction in lining its own pockets by the practice?
    And on, and on, but enough for now.

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  36. George Rebane Avatar

    And as this discussion continues, we see a complete disconnect in the communication of ideas between the Left and Right. SteveF’s rejoinder that conservatives’ support of private enterprise immediately translates into their promotion of monopolies is perhaps the most blatant example.
    (SteveF, you’re welcome here to offer and defend your views on the ideas presented. Your continuing innuendo about my not understanding America or Americanism is beyond the pale, and more appropriate fare on FUE’s blog.)
    From truthout.com we have another example of some ideas that to the Right are insane, and to the Left are nothing less than wisdom revealed.
    http://www.truthout.org/actually-rich-dont-create-jobs-we-do/1305380742
    DaveK, I think Vlado’s closed before we arrived in NC. And yes, I have maintained all along that my story, no matter how little known, is typical of millions of similar stories.

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  37. Dixon Cruickshank Avatar
    Dixon Cruickshank

    patriotic ?? wasn’t there a recent dust up about even flying the American flag –
    Case in point – due to Federal Regulations NMFS as Fla is known as ” The Fising Capitol of the World” (its on our tags)
    We, the public, can only fish 45 days a year – ironcially the worest times so we don’t catch many – admitted. Now this was the Feds idea, they closed it completely in Federal Waters, then Fla had the option to leave State Waters inside 9 miles open the current 10 mon. – IF they did not go with the 45 day season the Feds stated they would never open Federal Waters – extorsion or blackmail take your pick. So much for states rights – btw we as citizens are also sueing OUR Gov.
    Commerical fishieries are now regulated to -Catch Shares- handed out by the Gov., each share(fish) granted for ever to that fisherman from a Total Allowable Catch (TAC), both the TAC and who gets what are determined by – you guess it I bet, the Gov. The TAC being so small that the individual fisherman can not survive but can sell or lease their shares to anyone forever. Therby creating a fish collective controlled completely BY you guessed it the Government. This has been brought to you by NOAA under the astute leadership of Jane Lubruncio – whatever – ex head of the Enviromental Defense Fund (EDF).
    If thats not socialism I will drive out to CA and kiss somebody’s ass. This is just one example as this has all just been instituted since the election of this administration. There are multiple lawsuits by New Bedford and Glouster, Mass. trying to defend their citizens from their own Government – and you don’t think we have a divide.
    This week in Mass again, an art student that drew a pic of the American flag was told he could not hang it in the classroom because it might offend a classmate – and we don’t have a divide

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  38. Dixon Cruickshank Avatar
    Dixon Cruickshank

    Note the origin of the Reps
    After more than a week of deliberation, the House overwhelmingly approved a measure honoring the intelligence community for the mission that killed Osama bin Laden.
    The vote wasn’t unanimous, however. Four liberal Democrats – Reps. Dennis Kucinich (Ohio), Barbara Lee (Calif.), Pete Stark (Calif.) and Lynn Woolsey (Calif.) – voted “present” on the measure, which was offered as an amendment to an intelligence authorization bill.

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  39. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    Great use of facts and logic Larry! Well done:
    Posted by: Larry Wirth | 14 May 2011 at 12:37 PM

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  40. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    What gives me hope that a divide can successfully/peacefully occur (and thus restore the liberty once promised to Americans) is that both sides (Liberty vs collectivism) think their ‘team’ would be the victor.
    And I thought the progressives knew that they lived off of the labors of us entrepreneurs whom create jobs/food/infrastructure/medical cures/ipods/low fat ice cream, etc…
    I guess the ‘next time the government will get it right’ mantra of the collectivist provides hope in the midst of a (morally and financially) bankrupt Social Security System, Medicare, Dept of Education, Dept Of Energy, EPA, HUD, FEMA, IRS, Federal Reserve, DOD, SEC, Treasury’s Fiat Money….etc, etc, etc.
    I will continue to believe in laws of economics (not emotion driven propaganda)with a sprinkle Einsteins definition of insanity.
    I will side with individual liberty and free market capitalism (competition, REAL money, Real Interest Rates) over tyranny. I will not worship government as a god.

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  41. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Hey George, I’m just pointing out that you seem to be the immigrant who has not assimilated to American culture. I’m not sure why there is anything wrong with that, especially since your posters can peg people as socialists and communists on a regular basis, not to mention infer that they act illegally or take psychotropic medications.
    You are the one who is inferring that a culture needs to be homogeneous to be stable.
    And I did not say that conservative support of private enterprise immediately translates into the promotion of monopoly–I said conservatives consistently support monopoly–I actually think both sides of the political spectrum are guilty of supporting monopoly to different degrees, its just that conservatives support monopolies and oligarchies to a greater degree than liberals do. However, this forum would never let a conversation get to that nuance.
    Finally, I am fascinated at the magical thinking on this blog about the purity of free markets. Only an adherents of Rebanism, could not recognize that there is no such thing as a free market.
    Every market has some rules, regulations, cultural norms, ethics, boundaries, or other mechanism that restricts its freedom. Markets look free only because we have grown used to the restrictions. For example, every market in first and second world countries (and most third) has restrictions on child labor. Does that make the market less free in a philosophical sense? Of Course it does. But would we eliminate child labor laws? No, and I don’t think anyone here is suggesting that. There are dozens of restrictions that interfere with a free market–we just don’t see them or recognize them. Zoning is a restriction on free markets, are we going to eliminate zoning? or pollution laws? or safety regulation on automobiles or medications? or governors on go-carts? No one is suggesting that, but does anyone doubt that the go-cart track that had carts that go faster would do better financially? The list could go on….
    Consequently, how ‘free’ a market is is extremely hard to define. It is essentially a political definition, it is function of the process through which people make collective decisions.
    When a free market economist, such as followers of the here-sainted Hayek, say that certain regulations should not be implemented because it would interfere with the freedom of a market, they are merely expressing a political opinion that they reject the rights that are to be defended by the proposed regulation.
    So the issue is not really “we want a free market” it is “we want a less regulated market”. Great, once we get to that, then the question is what regulation is necessary and what regulation is un-necessary? I would be the first one to say that un-necessary regulation should be eliminated. Fine, lets find them and eliminate them. In order to do that we need to do a cost-benenfit analysis, which means the external costs, that is the costs that the target of the regulation might pass on to the taxpayers or citizens, needs to be calculated as well. We must internalize the externalities. I wholeheartedly support weighing the value of a regulation against the costs and making rational decisions.
    That brings it back to a political process, collective decision-making, which is the definition of politics. So the problem you guys really have is that in a true collective decision-making process you cannot get your way. You are not standing for some high-minded principle, because there is no such thing as a free market, you are standing for political advantage for your point of view.
    Well tough luck boys–we are not buying the principle thing–most sane people like safety, clean neighborhoods, fair business practices and restriction on child labor.

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  42. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    I suppose the collapse of world fisheries so Dixon can fish any damn time he wants would be preferable, huh?
    http://wormlab.biology.dal.ca/media/Time%20Magazine_July%2031%202009.pdf

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  43. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    By the way Dixon, what gives you the right to take my fish?

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  44. RL Crabb Avatar

    As usual, this never-ending repetitious debate reaffirms my belief that the biggest impediment to freedom, justice and the American way are liberals and conservatives.

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  45. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    I want to go back to this point from Barry for a moment:
    “So, the proponents of separation from England in the 18th centurt were totalitarians? You are kidding, right? I have to be misunderstanding your point”
    Yes, you do misunderstand my point. George’s separation is based on cultural differences, not political differences. Our founders did not support division based on cultural differences—except of course for Africans!

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  46. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Kinda funny hoe Frisch complains about corporations and such and he is the “leader” of a non-profit corporation. Nowif there truly is a hypocrite amonst us, I think we found him. Steve, try to keep up man while we all get a chuckle at your expense. Oh, and how is it you can question Georg’e assimilation into American culture and at the same time defend the immigrant communities of America? You are sooo funny. Must be that higher education in “critical thinking” eh?

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  47. Barry Pruett Avatar

    The quote you provided says exactly the opposite of what you think it says and in fact supports my point. Smith’s assertion suggest getting government out of the economy. You must know that during the time of Smith England created the monopolies in the colonies about which he spoke. Smith asserts that competition without government intereference is best. Government intervention in a free market creates monopolies…in fact a monopoly is another indicia of socialism.
    Again, you are not making sense, and you are confusing the law. Monopolies are not illegal in the USA. What is illegal is price fixing or a company doing something that limits competition.
    Like I said, monopolies are created by government intervention or criminal coercion.
    Please name for me a current corporation that has a “monopoly” that was not created by government intervention.

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  48. Mike Thornton Avatar

    I love it when Steve Frisch shows up, since he’s pretty much smarter than the rest of you guys combined, especially you Todd!
    In many ways I agree with you Steve in the fact that we all know what “States Rights” really means for most of these people. But at the same time, they are effectively blocking any real progress on most issues and it’s clear from everything we see, that they have no intention of giving up or even trying to reach a compromise position that we might all be able to live with.
    So what do we do?
    I’m not saying I have the answer, but I think there comes a point where perhaps you have to let the Ayn Rand and her sycophants, drown in order to save the rest of the people on the ship!
    Look it’s pretty simple really, the majority here believe in the “Gilded Age” and I believe in the “New Deal”.
    I don’t think there is any argument that government has an appropriate role to play as a counter balance to privatized corporate power.
    You complain about government “choosing winners and losers” and you’re right, because once again, privatized corporate power has corrupted the process and continues to do so at every opportunity. Rather than correct the problem, which would be to make government more beholden to the rank and file and less to the investor class, your answer is to just do away with government and let the investor class make the decisions directly.
    History (translate that as “facts” for those of you from Rio Linda) shows us what happens when the investor class has been allowed to call all the shots, works out pretty good for them, but for everybody else, not so much.
    Consider another fact, that the vast majority of private wealth has been built using public resources and public investment, not to mention the labor of the American working class. But now, since technology has allowed for the outsourcing of production to the cheapest labor market anywhere on the planet, the investor class has done what? They have increasingly abandoned America in order to do exactly what your preferred economic model calls for, the “maximization or profit”.
    So for all of this talk about “patriotism”, what we have is every attempt possible being made to lower the standard of living of the American worker and a wholesale disinvestment in our country’s infrastructure, educational system and pretty much everything else, save the military, because a lethal war machine is very much needed to protect global capitalism. Now mind you the investor class has no problem with asking ALL Americans to foot the bill for that!

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  49. Barry Pruett Avatar

    OMG. I guess that George’s article is pretty close to the mark. “The lady doth protest too much, methinks.”

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