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May 2011
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George Rebane

President Obama posted what he vouched as his genuine Hawaii birth certificate the other day (here).  The intent was to finally put to rest the innuendos, claims, and downright charges that he is not a ‘natural born American’.   But given the image analysis tools broadly available today, along with a remarkable amount of well dispersed knowledge about image processing, the posted birth certificate raises more questions than it answers.

With some background in the theory and practice of image analysis, I found the arguments in this YouTube video illuminating and at the same time disturbing.  The question that resonates in my brainbone is ‘why would anyone from the White House think that this image of the birth certificate would pass muster?’  This dust-devil just wants to become a tornado.  You be the judge.

H/T for the email from a reader.

[4may2011 update]  The White House presented birth certificate is now becoming laughable.  The above image analysis was expended and explicated in this YouTube video.  To accept the certificate as authentic now requires the suspension of disbelief usually attributed to religious fanatics.  All that remains for the hard left to do is to just talk past this which does happen to be real evidence that the WH posted long form birth certificate is a doctored fake.  H/T to a reader.

[15may2011 update]  To bring the WH posted birth certificate issue to closure, I sent the following email to our Congressman Tom McClintock on 4 May 2011 with a copy to his chief of staff Igor Birman.

Hi Tom – I’m sure you’re aware of it by now, but the WH posted pdf of the President’s “scanned” birth certificate is a doctored fake.  I pulled down the image myself, and viewed it in Adobe Acrobat Professional to confirm the analyses available on YouTube.  My own post on the subject is here
http://rebaneruminations.typepad.com/rebanes_ruminations/2011/05/the-birth-certificate-from-hell.html

I don’t know what the politics behind this fakery is or how it should be played, but I would like to know 1) any additional info you have on the posted birth certificate, and 2) what, if any, official reaction will you have toward this latest ‘proof’.

Thank you the great job, and for hanging in there for us,
George

And on 12 May 2011 I followed up with an email to Igor Birman that read –

Hi Igor – this birth certificate issue must really be one too hot to handle.  I made no birther claim, only corroborated (in my capacity as a registered professional engineer in the relevant technologies) that the WH posted birth certificate pdf is a fake.  If you don’t want to address that blatant fact, can you at least tell me what is the strategy of silence over this clumsy posting on the WH website?  In short, if Tom believes it to be authentic, and that it settles the matter, then please tell us.

Thanks,
gjr

To these emails I received the following reply.

[16may2011 update]  The subsequent exchange today between Igor Birman and me may put paid to the above developments.

Hi George:

First, please forgive the tardiness of my reply. Last week presented far more material than could be digested, so I am writing you back from a United A319 cruising at 38,000 feet over Ohio en route to California.

Our office never had the time to examine the birth certificate, so your findings concern me. You may have heard this before – we did have the time to send Brittan Specht to the Library of Congress to find the original newspaper bearing Obama's birth announcement in Honolulu. If the conspiracy to make him a natural-born citizen extends that far back, we are in more trouble than we realize.

The more important point for me is this: there is a finite amount of time between now and the election. We can either spend the next 17.5 months debating where Obama was born, or we can invest every moment of our time and every ounce of our energy into making a case against his reckless monetary policy, bungled bailouts, forcing Soviet-style healthcare on the country, wild spending, naked hostility to domestic energy production, etc. I can assure you that on the latter we have the rapt attention of almost every American. I don't know what percentage is paying attention to the former, but I can also assure you that it is a smaller figure. I am afraid that if we don't focus like a laser on the tangible consequences (present and future) of Obama's misadventures in the White House, we will allow him to skate on through into a second term.

Let me know what you think!

All the best,
-Igor

To which I replied –

Igor, thank you for the reply – well formed and to the point.  With your permission, I would like to publish it and my response.  In sum, I agree with your resource allocation decision in the face of ‘limited bandwidth’ that the congressman has at his disposal.  My caveats on the issue are intended to be added arrows in Tom’s quiver should the appropriate occasion arise.  I list them below –

  1. As pointed out by several other commentators, the Honolulu newspaper birth announcement is not a validation of anything per se.  Newspapers don’t vet the accuracy of classified ads.  Such ads have been placed regularly for decades, and for a number of reasons by people who think ahead.  As concerned collectivist thinkers and activists, Obama’s parents most certainly had the ability and motive to think and act strategically in this manner.  Many illegal entrants do so regularly.
  2. The posted birth certificate (pdf) is represented by the WH as definitive proof of Obama’s birth.   Americans should take at its face value the WH declared objective, production pathway, and intended function of publishing this pdf in resolving the birth issue.
  3. Given #2, the FACT that the pdf is a modified document that could not have gone through the claimed production pathway – original paper document, file of scanned paper copy, conversion of file to pdf, posting pdf on WH website – makes the posted birth certificate a fake, and its representation to the American public a lie.
  4. None of this is proof, per se, that Obama’s birth situation violates the constitutional provision for the country’s presidency.  But, at a minimum, it sustains the proposition that Obama has yet to offer proof that he does satisfy the Constitution.  And the more, that for TBD reasons his administration (he?) has behaved fraudulently in the posting of the pdf.
  5. Any member of Congress can vet the authenticity of the pdf (for much less cost than sending someone to Honolulu to read newspaper archives) by asking a government funded unit such as the NSA or JPL to have their imaging experts look at the file for fifteen minutes, and report back on its purported authenticity viz its stated production pathway.  Or simply hire one of a legion of available private technical consultants to do so (I have already done it pro bono).  BTW, since we are dealing with a reproduced digital image, why the administration has not provided such accompanying bona fides is an additional mystery.

I hope this at least helps clarify my position on the matter.  Thanks again, and let me know when you’re next in town or striking distance.

gjr

Finally, my error in implying that Congressman McClintock's office sent someone to Honolulu instead of to the Libraty of Congress in Washington DC.

Posted in , , ,

142 responses to “The Birth Certificate from Hell (updated 16may2011)”

  1. Russ Steele Avatar

    Oh My! When asked about the Birth Certificate, I said let’s wait until the forensic experts examine the document and see what they have to say. On the first pass, it looks like we have a fake. But, this is only an indicator, now it is time dig deeper, and I am sure that other experts will. Stay tuned!

    Like

  2. Mike Thornton Avatar

    Why don’t you guys just admit that no matter what he does, you’re never going to let this go!
    This is all about engaging in dog whistle politics for the ill informed racist right wing.
    You seem to have pretensions about being big conservative thinkers, but continuing to try and play the thoroughly discredited “Manchurian Muslim” card just makes you look ridiculous!

    Like

  3. Russ Steele Avatar

    Mike,
    How do you explain the disparities demonstrated in the video? The document does not appear to be what the office of the President claims it is, the scan of the an original. Perhaps you can explain the differences between what we see and what we are being told. It appears to be a manufactured document. Please explain how this can happen, and why you think it is not the scan of an original? Perhaps there is a easy explanation we have over looked.

    Like

  4. Dixon Cruickshank Avatar
    Dixon Cruickshank

    Mike its no different than you applying for a drivers license or a passport. There are documents that need to verify you are in fact entitled to be approved. If those documents appear to the clerk to be false you may not get what you want without more scrutiny, they may not just take your word for it.
    Only 2 requirements to be Pres – this is 1 – k

    Like

  5. wmartin Avatar
    wmartin

    Without anyone publishing the full tools chain to produce the file, I can’t see that there’s any point in tearing it down. Layers in Illustrator, for example, may have been introduced without the knowledge of the operator.
    I think that the whole argument is tailor-made for modern times, there’s a rather Philip K. Dick-ian aura of authenticity and doubts about same.
    There is a real interest in this birth certificate business, obviously, because it pushes into an edge condition of what is considered a legal candidate for President. Having a US citizen parent is not enough depending on the year and exact circumstances. It does make for good political theatre.
    In my mind, the really interesting part is the social and legal angles of what is considered ‘real’. Modern abilities to produce fake documents will lead into an arms race between forgers and producers. We probably need to rethink the physical mechanism for things like wills, contracts, birth certificates. etc. Ever since National Geographic scooched around pyramids on the cover, you can’t trust nobody.
    For the man Himself, there’s a certain falseness that makes him the ideal 21st century office holder. A lack of job history, secret school records, secret medical records, combined with a Reagan-like ability to stand there and effectively deliver prewritten lines to an audience. You end up with office holders that are whatever you want them to be. If you’re a fan, Obama holds all that you deem good in humanity, if not, the opposite holds.
    At the risk of sawing off the third leg of US federal government, there’s something to be said for parliamentary systems. At least in the case of a PM, you tend to know what you are getting since they are the product of a long term Darwinistic climb through a party.
    The next logical step in United States politics will be the first synthetic President. A combination of the IBM Jeopardy program, altered for speech making and press conferences, combined with a video game generated face will bring the federal government to a PS3 near you.

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  6. Mike Thornton Avatar

    Russ
    I think you know that any presentation (video or otherwise) can be manipulated, especially when the desired result has already been decided upon.
    The real question is: Why is it that some so-called “conservatives” refuse to accept the fact that President is indeed an American citizen despite all the evidence and verification that has already been provided, including the State of Hawaii certifying that he was born there?
    Why was there never such inquiries made about John McCain, when he, in fact WAS born in a foreign country?
    Gee, Russ, let me count the ways, Obama is a “liberal” and so therefore must be discredited (at all costs) by the right wing. (remember when Clinton was a “drug dealing, murderer according to Richard Mellon Scaife) He has an African/Muslim sounding name (which one would think, that if he really was the “Manchurian Muslim” that you seem so desperate to make him, would have been pretty stupid to have him keep)and finally because he’s a Black man and therefor inherently unworthy of being President of the United States and he must have come to the position through some gigantic conspiracy. How else could someone like “That One” have risen to such a high position?
    The thing that drives me up the wall with this stuff, is you guys won’t be honest about what you’re doing. Over the years, the conspiracies have always been the same, only the names have changed. It was the Jews (and for many it still is!), The Communists, The Catholics, The Mexicans, The Blacks and now The Muslims!
    I guess with Obama you get “two for one”?
    It just gets really tiring Russ and I wish you guys would put your efforts into actually doing something to help the country instead of wasting everyone’s time on this crap!
    Remember that while you guys were hassling the president about this fake and made up issue, he was working on killing Bin Laden and he succeed!

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  7. Mike Thornton Avatar

    I rest my case!

    Like

  8. Steve Enos Avatar
    Steve Enos

    Well it’s clear… George is a birther.

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  9. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    George, damn you for thinking for yourself! You too Russ! Drink the Kool-aid and get back in line already.
    As for me and the birth cert issue- I could not care less.

    Like

  10. George Rebane Avatar
    George Rebane

    SteveE – I understand a ‘birther’ is someone who definitely believes that President Obama is not a natural born American as required by the Constitution. I cannot say that, and maintain only that I have not seen credible evidence that he is. And therefore I remain an agnostic on the matter; my mind is open to new evidence as it comes in.

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  11. Mike Thornton Avatar

    What would be “credible” evidence for you George?

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  12. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    I was watching CNN a couple of weeks ago and their newsreader was interviewing a woman who allegedly had proof Obama’s Social Security number was fake. She was also questioning the BC and some other stuff. It was quite a fun interview with the CNN fellow slapping her down rather than allowing her to finish a sentences. These “deniers” like CNN, Thornton and Enos probably believed there was a man on the grassy knoll and that is just fine, Or that Bush and the Jews downed the Towers. But God forbid anyone has a question about their lover Obama. I think it always legitimate to question anything the government or a politician says or claims. But when these lovelies become the bootlickers of those they have decided to love, )liberals and Obama), there is no room for questions. Just a Seig Heil for the liberal icons.

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  13. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Blog on Todd. It’s a good place for you to spend your time with the ever shrinking group of birthers. Even your pal McClintock jumped ship on that one years ago. Where were you when Bush Jr’s National Guard record was under scrutiny? And do you really believe Oswald acted alone? So many conspiracies, so little time.

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  14. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    I’m curious as to why asking questions about the evidence presented makes one a racist liar. I personally think Obama was born in Hawaii based on what I can tell. I don’t think that free and open inquiry about the issue should be ended. No matter what I believe about anything, I’m willing to entertain evidence to the contrary. And I would wonder why others want to stop folks from looking into the facts of the matter. Is there something to hide? As I see it, the president is having a great time with all of the hub-bub, as it makes a great diversion from the public focusing on his failed policies.

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  15. RL Crabb Avatar

    Yes! Yes!…The mother and father, dead!…The doctor who delivered him, dead! The grandparents, all the people he ever knew growing up, dead! Very convenient!
    And now that WE know about it, they’ll have to get rid of u…….

    Like

  16. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Paul, I am not a birther, I have state numerous times I believe he was born in Hawaii. What amazes me is you make fun of people asking questions of your sacred cows. As a journalist I would expect more from you. BTW, from what you wrote above you are telling us you believe Oswald had help? What should we call you for that?

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  17. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    Oh my god, they killed Crabby! You bastards!

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  18. Brad Avatar
    Brad

    http://underthemountainbunker.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/35.jpg?w=461&h=298
    The document is obviously a scan of the birth certificate overlaying a green background layer. Just look at the left side of the page where the written information becomes darker closer to where the page was attached to the book. You can see the edge of the scan clearly.
    The hospital could have added the background, the State of Hawaii could have added the background, etc.
    I give that YouTube video a big, so what?
    Why doesn’t the YouTube armchair detective get out of his basement, fly to Honolulu, and personally compare the documents to verify the information, instead of the green background?
    Maybe someone would chip in a few bucks for a plane ticket to confirm this earth shattering revelation.
    Here is another one you might be interested in. This email is making the rounds now:
    “Subject: More alterations on Obama’s birth certificate…
    Obama could not have been born at the Kapiolani Maternity & Gynecological Hospital in 1961, because it didn’t exist.
    In 1961, that hospital was called the Kauikeolani Children’s Hospital. There was a name change in 1978 (when the hospital merged with the Kapi‘olani Maternity Home).
    Someone didn’t to their research.
    How could a document supposedly made in 1961 have predicted a name change 17 years into the future?”
    And here is a wiki article on more Obama conspiracies:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama_citizenship_conspiracy_theories

    Like

  19. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    Interesting video, but just off the top of my head, I can think of one good reason for the background being blurred in the sections where there’s type… DCT (discrete cosine transforms, a fascinating technique derived from Fast Fourier Transforms) compression techniques inherent in many file formats. If the scanned copy was saved as a compressed Jpeg file, sections with text could have resulted in bits being robbed from the background and leaving them fuzzier.
    Time will tell. For now, while interesting, I see no reason to get worked up over this video.

    Like

  20. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    George, Todd
    The questions have been asked and answered to the satisfaction of any reasonable person so I don’t understand why you won’t let this die? The only reasonable explanation I can muster is that’s it’s driven by a distrust and dislike of Obama that keeps it alive. Take the time to draw up a chart of the conspiracy that would have to be in place that would enable this to happen. And don’t you think that the Dems would have dug this up while vetting Obama’s candidacy in 08? Is it possible? Sure. It’s possible Oswald acted alone as well and that the moon walk was a fake.
    And yes, Obama and his crew are lapping this up in their efforts to push the Right off the table and onto the floor.

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  21. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Paul, so you believe Oswald had help that day eh? You have answered your own question. You and your fellow grassy knoll believers after almost sixty years still think what you believe. You don’t question that but for some reason after a couple of years of dodging the question asked by inquiring minds, Obama releases a copy of his BC and we are racists and “birthers”. I guess Thornton should not use this derogatory term since he is so sensitive. As I have said I am not a “birther”, I am a skeptic tank type. Call me a tanker. So being a journalist, how is it you have no concerns or questions but simply attack the messengers? Aren’t you always telling us “please don’t attack the messenger”?

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  22. Mike Thornton Avatar

    They know it’s all BS, Paul.
    This is all about casting Obama as the “other”. Whether it’s as the Black man or as the Muslim it’s all about trying to drive a wedge between him and White Christians.
    The other part of this (which is much more insidious) is the continuation of making government the “other” in order to facilitate corporate rule and fascist hegemony.

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  23. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Thanks for the belly laugh Thornton. You must be from Mars. What a hoot!

    Like

  24. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Sorry Todd if I characterized you as a Birther. The fact is that nearly 50% of the Republicans are.
    http://images.huffingtonpost.com/2011-04-28-Blumenthal-bitherbyparty.png
    I was just kidding about Oswald. We all believe the conclusions drawn by the Warren Commission right? According to the Commission Oswald renounces his US citizenship, moves to Russia, becomes a Russian citizen, takes a Russian bride, changes his mind, waltzes back to the US with his Russian wife and is taken back no questions asked, decides to assassinate Kennedy, moves to Dallas and pulls off an amazing feat of marksmanship all by himself. Sure

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  25. George Rebane Avatar
    George Rebane

    What would credible evidence look like? That is the same as asking when is any proposition judged to be ‘true enough’. There is no guarantee ever that something is 100% correct, some chance for error must always remain – for example, all scientific theories live such lives until they are superseded. Ultimately a proposition or theory is credible to the extent that it is useful for explaining something that happened, or predicting something that will happen – i.e. to the extent that it has utility.
    In any event, credible evidence is not easily falsifiable – it can withstand testing. This means that it would be hard to point out weaknesses in it that cannot be explained away. In the current birth certificate posting, the ‘evidence’ has sophomoric errors in it that give lie to the claim that this was an unmodified scanned document. And there is no accompanying explanation given as to why such obvious artifacts occur in the image of the document. Moreover, the artifacts look as if some kid with an image processing package like Adobe Photoshop messed with it.
    What adds to the conundrum is that the White House considered the whole population of the most technologically advanced country in the world to be so dense as to not pick up on these obvious artifacts. In sum, the posted birth certificate does not lend credibility (i.e. increase the assessed probability) that Obama was born in Hawaii, nor does it prove that he was not born in the United States. But it does raise questions as to its posting.

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  26. Mike Thornton Avatar

    So, in other words, George, there will never be enough evidence as long as one far right extremist doesn’t want there to be enough evidence.
    How intellectually dishonest can you be?
    Oh, I’m sorry, that answer is “As much as it takes!”
    I realize that the likes of Todd are easily impressed and bamboozled, but then again he doesn’t try to present himself as a great intellect or maybe he does try and just fails at it so badly, that it only looks like he isn’t trying, but do you really think that you’re not pathetically transparent?

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  27. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    Powerful governments (lack of personal liberty) = corporate rule and fascist hegemony.
    Mr. Thornton, are you saying that government must be all powerful in order to curb corporations? Do you believe in the accepted notion that corporations gain their power from a (too) powerful government (i.e. Robber barons are created by a large and corrupt government).
    Mike Thornton: “The other part of this (which is much more insidious) is the continuation of making government the “other” in order to facilitate corporate rule and fascist hegemony.”

    Like

  28. Mike Thornton Avatar

    No, I don’t believe government should be “all powerful”, I do believe that government under control of the voters should act as a counter-balance to entrenched corporate power and concentrated capital. Are you saying that you believe in an all powerful corporate control of society, cultural and the economy, with all decisions made by people that are unaccountable to anyone other than their major private investors?

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  29. George Rebane Avatar
    George Rebane

    Mikey – your excellent point can be summarized by the historical dictum that powerful corporations cannot exist without a powerful government, they go together hand-in-glove. It is government that creates and maintains oligopolies primarily through their directed power of the bayonet toward competitors and consumers.
    “… pathetically transparent?” Transparency intended but apparently not achieved. Mr Thornton, kinda seems like further discussion on this (and any other?) matter is pretty pointless.

    Like

  30. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Mikey, you cannot debate a rock. Thornton to my knowledge has never met a payroll nor had a successful business. Therefore he is in territory he knows nothing about. What he does know is government and its power to destroy. The last thing I recall him doing was being a leader in destroying small suction dredgers doing their thing and patting himself on the back for doing so. These kinds of people are why America is headed to the crapper. They are just big mouths with no history of success in what made America great. They are good whiners though.
    BTW even Canada is rejecting the Thornton’s of the world. See http://sierradragonsbreathe.blogspot.com/2011/05/canada-elects-conservative-majority.html
    Paul, I think your last word in your post, the word “sure”, says it all. You are obviously a person who believes Oswald had help in murdering Kennedy. Therefore, how is it you can judge others who question the birth certificate? Please explain.

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  31. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    Mr. Thornton, I pray, hope and vote for personal liberty every time. I believe that in a truly free society (without a government powerful enough to sell out to the highest bidder) the values of the individual serve the both the individual and collective best. Competition (via personal liberty) protects us against corporate rule and fascist hegemony.
    Agreed George:
    “powerful corporations cannot exist without a powerful government”.

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  32. Mike Thornton Avatar

    So the “conservative” approach is to remove government and simply turn everything over to the oligarchs and they can then use their own privatized “bayonets” to enforce their will.
    Makes sense: “cut out the middleman” and increase that “bottom line”

    Like

  33. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    Mr. Thornton, the common sense approach (“Mike Thornton said…
    No, I don’t believe government should be “all powerful”) to increasing personal liberty would be to decrease the power of the government AND THUS CORPORATIONS which would insure against the “corporate rule and fascist hegemony” you speak of. Which begs the question, how much to do you value personal liberty?
    In a free society the consumers vote their values via their wallets.
    If you are suggesting that more competition would increase the bottom line then I fear any more discussion may be futile.

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  34. George Rebane Avatar

    Dear Readers – by request I have enabled the ‘comment thread’ feature on TypePad that allows you to reply ‘in place’ to individual comments thereby allowing the creation of a separate discussion thread and/or skipping over an entire indented structure of comments that do not interest you.
    For example, Mr Thornton quite often has trouble following the logic of arguments in responding to preceding comments, and instead takes off into left(!) field with his responses – see example immediately above. This feature may be useful in such cases.

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  35. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    As you can see the left cannot reason. It is not our desire to remove all government it is our desire to have it live within the rules set by the Founders. Enumerated not limitless. The left always thinks things are a “zero sum game”. Of course in real life it isn’t but the left doesn’t think that way. The large corporations and large governments and large unions are all the same format. We like to fight for the little guy and freedom. Oh, Big Green is the same thing now in our country. We fight them too.

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  36. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    So the “conservative” approach is to remove government and simply turn everything over to the oligarchs and they can then use their own privatized “bayonets” to enforce their will.

    Reductio ad absurdum is the last refuge of the scoundrel. In a free market, the government is there to keep the peace and enforce contracts, not choose the winners and the losers.

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  37. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    George
    You give a lot of credibility to the source of your information. Is he a forensic professional specializing in computer graphics or an amateur with a cause? He seems to be some kind of financial blogger best I can tell. It was just a few month ago that the slimmer Breitbart pulled his tryst and was exposed as a fraud. All this attention plays well for Obama. The recent poll data that shows nearly 50% of Republicans believe it is astonishing. I don’t think this has legs and the Repubs will distance themselves as the election nears and they need to move to the middle.
    George, how do you explain the published newspaper reports publishing his birth.
    Todd The JFK assassination is a different story and I put that in to poke you and see where you stand. Have you ever read the Warren Commission report? It you have and believe it then that’s your privilege and I won’t dispute your opinion.

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  38. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    So you don’t believe Oswald was alone? Why would that be a different issue regarding conspiracy thinking? Tell us your position since you seem to think dancing around it is so fun.

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  39. Mike Thornton Avatar

    I don’t have any trouble at all George. You just don’t like the answers!

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  40. George Rebane Avatar

    Paul, anyone can play with the image of the birth certificate here
    http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/rss_viewer/birth-certificate-long-form.pdf
    For a supposedly uniformly scanned image, even the simplest of consumer image processors display it as anything except uniform black print on green dappled paper. BTW, I’m not sure the originally published image has not been replaced on the WH website.
    Re newspaper notices, many authors have argued how easy it is to post such notices that require no further proof of birth. But I think that is an area to be further explored for promising credibility. There may be stronger contemporaneous evidence of Obama’s Hawaiian birth.

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  41. Mike Thornton Avatar

    So then we agree Todd. There is a legitimate role for government to play. No we’re discussing what that role is!

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  42. Mike Thornton Avatar

    And Greg, that’s what you guys have been doing for a long, long time!

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  43. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    AMEN!!!! “In a free market, the government is there to keep the peace and enforce contracts, not choose the winners and the losers.”

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  44. Mike Thornton Avatar

    No amount of evidence will ever be enough for them, Paul!
    The whole game is to de-legitimize, create fear and doubt and demonize.
    And I’ll say it flat out. When these people deny that is what this is all about, they’re liars, plain and simple. The problem is that they’ve been allowed to get a way with it for way too long.
    Notice that once somebody started really confronting Rebane, he changed the format to try and isolate comments he doesn’t like and doesn’t particularly want others to see.
    When right wingers, were barking and growling, promulgating discredited conspiracy theories, calling their opponents disgusting names and engaging in personal attacks, that was all good!

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  45. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Thornton, here is your words from above trying t defame conservatives. “The whole game is to de-legitimize, create fear and doubt and demonize.”
    This is what you and your ilk do all the time. The latest is the dredgers you were able to get banned from doing their jobs. So, yes, kettle meet pot. What a hypocrite.

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  46. George Rebane Avatar

    Correct on both counts Mr Thornton – you don’t have any trouble with your comments, and I find your arguments beyond my ken.

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  47. George Rebane Avatar

    Dear Readers – per many of your comments I’m trying something new. Have just deleted a series of comments by Messrs Juvinall, Enos, and Thornton that were not even remotely germain to the posted topic and consisted of mud pies thrown at each other. These exchanges could more properly be made via email between the parties concerned. I hope that all will understand that I’m trying to move the discussion back toward the message and away from degenerating into a bout of mutual messenger mangling. Your thoughts on this?

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  48. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Sorry George, I’ll do better.

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  49. Steve Enos Avatar
    Steve Enos

    Good job George!
    On topic… the continued Obama is not an American, we never really landed on the moon conspiracy is a total waste of time and energy considering the real issues we face.
    BUT… it sure makes the hard right birthers look like loons and it only helps Obama… so please keep it up!

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  50. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Sure Todd
    After reading the Warren Report (have your read it) many years ago I came tho the conclusion that the real story has yet to be told. As I stated earlier, the theory of Oswald being the sole person involved doesn’t at all seem plausible. Here is a refresher of the chain of events that lead to the assassination of Kennedy that I sent earlier
    Oswald renounces his US citizenship, moves to Russia, becomes a Russian citizen, takes a Russian bride, changes his mind, waltzes back to the US with his Russian wife, a KGB Colonel’s niece and is taken back no questions asked, decides to assassinate Kennedy, moves to Dallas and pulls off an amazing feat of marksmanship all by himself. Jack Ruby a local mobster who has no history of patriotism and never was know as a Kennedy supporter two days later shoots and kills Oswald on national television to save “Jackie the grief of a trial” then dies of cancer. The Kennedy family clams up and rubber stamps the Warren Commissions report by their silence.
    AS a starter I suggest you read through this to see the scope of information that disappeared when requests were made to make them public.
    http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/review-board/report/chapter-08.pdf
    This whole thing is just not plausible to an average thinker like me.

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