Rebane's Ruminations
December 2010
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George Rebane

Yesterday the Senate passed a bill to revoke the longstanding ‘Don’t ask, don’t tell’ policy banning gays serving openly in the military.  Senator and combat veteran John McCain pronounced the passage a “sad day” for the military, adding "I hope that when we pass this legislation that we will understand that we are doing great damage, and we could possibly … harm the battle effectiveness which is so vital to the survival of our young men and women in the military".  What did he mean by that?

Before liberals go ballistic on charges of unwarranted ‘discrimination’ and homophobia, it’s good to take a deep breath.  The opposition comes down to open homosexuality in a combat unit that is on par with open heterosexuality in such a unit.  I recall discussing this situation over the years, starting way back when I was on active duty as an artillery officer.  We always came back to the same sticking point – in combat you don’t want two people in love serving in the same unit that is in or about to be in harm’s way.

It doesn’t matter whether it’s your wife or husband or boyfriend or girlfriend or your same-sex lover.  People naturally make decisions that favor their lover over consideration for larger objectives the achievement of which would put their dear one in danger, or perhaps even sacrifice him/her.  Those kinds of considerations don’t belong in either the heat or anticipation of battle.  And if their existence is known to others, the collateral damage to cohesion and morale can be immeasurable, even to the point of totally compromising the mission and/or the unit.

So what to do about gays in the military?  Well, you can come up with a slew of other rules and regulations about who can get assigned where.  But if you have a unit that starts out with no one in love (or lust) with each other, but still have the possibility of that happening at some unknown point in the future, you have the same problem.  And it could be even worse for everyone if the lovers attempt to keep their relationship a secret from the others, because their actions will still be dominated by their concern for each other.

Because it also applies to heterosexuals, this is a tough problem that is totally independent of whether someone promotes or opposes other aspects of homosexual life – like same-sex marriage – in open society.  But I fear that its dissection will always bring in side charges of ‘homophobia’ etc to divert discussion of the real factors involved in having lovers share a foxhole.

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66 responses to “Lovers in a Foxhole”

  1. RL Crabb Avatar

    This kind of argument comes up every time a wall comes down. There were predictions of doom, gloom and the end of military cohesion when Harry Truman ordered an end to segregation. I remember the fear of having people who menstruate in the foxhole when women were allowed on the battlefield. Now we have new bugaboos to wring our hands over.
    There will be problems during the first few years of transition, and some machismo types will start going to bed with kevlar chastity belts, but eventually, they’ll have to get over themselves and go on with the business at hand.

    Like

  2. RL Crabb Avatar

    Might I point out that most other civilized nations have adopted these policies, including the mighty Estonian military?

    Like

  3. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    This is a bad idea.

    Like

  4. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    The other countries with the policy are second rate military powers now. Look at the Dutch. When they started the PC process, over time they became wimps.

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  5. George Rebane Avatar

    Bob, your pithy comments about ‘kevlar chastity belts’ effectively diverts the point I was making and which has not been covered well in the public reporting. It says nothing about heterosexuals fearing sexual assault, or even that homosexuals cannot fight as effectively as their straight comrades. It just acknowledges the diversrion of attention and effort toward unit goals that lovers evince in such situations. That is a natural human reaction and there is nothing snide that needs be made out of it.
    During WW2 the USSR probably got the most experience with women and men, sometimes husband and wife, fighting together (both in the Red Army and in guerilla operations). They suffered through the problems that I raise, and that we should be prepared to handle now that DADT has been repealed.
    An example in the US military is the abortive and costly attempt that Gen Patton made in the closing days of the war when he sent a combat unit deep behind German lines to rescue his POW son-in-law. That bad decision by a loving father to relieve his daughter needlessly cost American and POW lives. Now we can imagine when two lovers in combat are in the same company or platoon.

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  6. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    The military is now Castro Street. Lovely.

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  7. RL Crabb Avatar

    Let me put on my pithy helmet and offer that your analysis assumes that gay soldiers will be fighting along side partners/lovers. I doubt that this will be the case any more now than it was in Patton’s time. I don’t believe gay soldiers are joining up to look for sex. What’s wrong with wanting to serve your country?
    And Todd, I think your blog “Sierra Dragon’s Breath” is misnamed. How about “Elephant’s Graveyard”? Man up, dude.

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  8. George Rebane Avatar

    Bob, no one has claimed that gay soldiers are joining to look for sex in the military. And there’s nothing “wrong with wanting to serve your country”. Those are two red herrings you have inserted for some puzzling reason.
    But my ‘analysis’ does indeed contemplate exactly the situation that lovers may wind up in the same unit under combat conditions. That has happened with both heterosexuals and homosexuals who were assigned to the unit before becoming lovers. And that is exactly what the combat military is concerned about. If that can be prevented by some practical means, then let’s apply it and all celebrate the repeal of DADT.

    Like

  9. Steve Enos Avatar
    Steve Enos

    This post by Todd is 100% discraceful on so many levels… an apology to all that serve, have serevsd and have given their lives for our Country is warrented:
    “The military is now Castro Street. Lovely”
    George, care to call out Todd on his “comment” or do you agree with his discraceful post? Does thos blog site have any standards or respect for those that serve?

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  10. Almost enough said Avatar
    Almost enough said

    Steve, I agree. You should totally boycott this blog.

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  11. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Looks like only lefty speech is allowed by Crabb and Enos. LOL

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  12. Steve Enos Avatar
    Steve Enos

    George, Todd should be banned from your blog for his “comment”:
    “The military is now Castro Street. Lovely”
    Gay members of our military have served and have given their lives defending our Country!
    George, wiLl you give Todd the boot from your blog for his discraceful post?
    What do you think would be the reaction and feelings of the Friends of the Military and the Fathers, Mothers and family members of gay service members about Todd’s post?
    How many readers and posters here will speak up on this? How many think that Todd’s post is just fine and dandy vs. discusting and insulting to thiose that serve and even give their lives in the service and protection of our Country?

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  13. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Well golly Steve, why can’t people say things you don’t like without you calling for them to be banned? Why is only your opinion worthy. Do you think you have the right to ban speech? If you have a personal problem with my comments too bad. I have decided that short of profanity, speech should be allowed. Besides, over 60% of the men and women serving in combat agree it is a bad idea of which you support.

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  14. George Rebane Avatar

    SteveE, Todd’s comment is his opinion on the matter. No one has to agree with him, and his remarks are here for all to read and respond to as they will. You have chosen to respond with rage and want him censored for opinions you consider outrageous. Applying such a policy uniformly would deny all RR readers the ideas and sentiments that illuminate the minds of commenters from all parts of the ideological manifold (techy term for acknowledging that the spectrum is not one or even two dimensional).
    I don’t want to do that because I believe that the contributions of you and yours are important, even though they are mostly outrageous to how many other RR readers look at the same piece of real estate. It is notable that I still haven’t had any calls from the right to ban lefties from expressing themselves here. But I suppose that is another way to tell us apart.

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  15. RL Crabb Avatar

    First off, I’d like to say I’m an American. I would sooner join the Fredonian Foreign Legion than call myself a Democrat or Republican.
    And Todd and Steve should never be censored. They are a constant reminder why I quit those poiltical institutions called parties.

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  16. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    LOL

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  17. Dave C Avatar
    Dave C

    As a board member of California Local Board 3 of the Selective Service System, the Selective Service detachment in Sacramento told me gay males will be required to report for conscription should the draft be reinstated. No more hiding behind homosexuality. Females, by law are still exempt unless the law is changed.

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  18. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    I just read where the lifting of DADT may be a ruse.

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  19. Steve Enos Avatar
    Steve Enos

    Todd posts…”The military is now Castro Street. Lovely”
    Gay members of our military have served and have given their lives defending our Country!
    Todd’s comment disparages those that have served and given their lives for our County… but Todd’s comment seems to be just fine and supported here.
    George, do you agree with Todd’s post or do you believe that it’s way out of line and disrespecful to those that have served and died in defense of our Country?

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  20. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    Todd wrote: “The military is now Castro Street. Lovely.”
    My guess is that Todd was throwing some raw meat to the animals. He likes to do that. But I’m of the opinion that his meat has strychnine in it, so I’m just going to sidle over to this other side of the cage and ignore the poisonous meat altogether.
    George, the military will adjust their policies to prevent same-sex couples from serving in the same squad or platoon together. It will not be an issue.
    Next topic please.

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  21. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    I was talking about Castro street in Albuquerque.

    Like

  22. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Barry Goldwater interviewed by Larry King shortly before he died responded when asked about gays in the military that they’ve always been there and always would be so there was no use in attempting to banish them. His exact quote was “You don’t have to be straight to shoot straight.”
    Of course, Barry would not be a Conservative by todays standards.
    More from Barry during Clintons administration
    http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/scotts/bulgarians/barry-goldwater.html
    “We have wasted enough precious time, money and talent trying to persecute and pretend. It’s time to stop burying our heads in the sand and denying reality for the sake of politics. It’s time to deal with this straight on and be done with it. It’s time to get on with more important business.
    The conservative movement, to which I subscribe, has as one of its basic tenets the belief that government should stay out of people’s private lives. Government governs best when it governs least – and stays out of the impossible task of legislating morality. But legislating someone’s version of morality is exactly what we do by perpetuating discrimination against gays.
    When you get down to it, no American able to serve should be allowed, much less given an excuse, not to serve his or her country. We need all our talent.
    If I were in the Senate today, I would rise on the Senate floor in support of our commander in chief. He may be a Democrat, but he happens to be right on this question.”

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  23. George Rebane Avatar

    MichaelA, please reread my response. Not assigning lovers to the same unit doesn’t guarantee that those so assigned will not become lovers subsequently. That happens with both heterosexual and homosexual mixes. How do you defend against that?
    This seems to be a totally inaccessible nuance to many people. Who keep coming back over and over again to the simplistic responses that have not worked.

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  24. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    JOIN THE ARMY AND SEE THE NAVY
    Hail, hail Freedonia!

    Like

  25. Dixon Cruickshank Avatar
    Dixon Cruickshank

    Personally I can’t see anybody concerned about somebodys junk when under fire, the other aspects are already there when females were introduced even more so.
    Homer, George puts up with you and Todd so get over it
    do you want this like Pelines, where you can’t post to either George or Russ’s blogs? didn’t think so

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  26. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    “Not assigning lovers to the same unit doesn’t guarantee that those so assigned will not become lovers subsequently. That happens with both heterosexual and homosexual mixes. How do you defend against that?”
    What Dixon said: “Personally I can’t see anybody concerned about somebodys junk when under fire…”
    But even if people do fall in love in the same unit, put it in the code that one of them is required to be reassigned. Perhaps it’s already in the code. They won’t be able to hide it, everyone in their unit will know immediately.
    Ever watched an office romance bloom? Were they able to hide it?

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  27. George Rebane Avatar

    When possible, such reassignments have been implemented in other countries’ militaries, with results unknown to me. But if our combat military leaders and troops feel that this is a satisfactory arrangement for eliminating the problems of ‘post assignment romance’, then I have no problem with the new scheme of things.
    Nevertheless, the 60% plus opposition to DADT of combat forces remains a concern. What other factors are we overlooking in this discussion, that still worries them?

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  28. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    I have served in many forward operating
    locations (FOLs.) You can’t expect an 18
    year old to shower with a 35 year old openly
    gay sergeant and not expect trouble. We
    don’t expect women to do that. So, you’re
    left with (created) a situation where soldiers
    who have precious little privacy to begin with
    loose a little more just to placate ones
    necessity to prove they’re enlightened and
    sensitive. Crap!
    This is not a good idea.
    Maybe this will give you a clue!
    These are open stalls.
    http://tinyurl.com/3xqnlak
    You’re lucky if you get one of these.
    http://tinyurl.com/35ce55r
    So, enjoy your easy life and tell us again how
    enlightened you are.

    Like

  29. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    If the experience of the mass of pregnant females on Navy ships doesn’t convince the PC crowd, then we are lost. One only needs to be the recipient of unwanted advances time and again, whether female or male to understand that sex trumps everything, just like Freud laid out in his works.

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  30. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    George: “What other factors are we overlooking in this discussion, that still worries them?”
    Homophobia and ignorance. Many of these combat forces are recent recruits, coming from parts of the country that are less enlightened than the coasts. They’ve had it rammed into their brains since birth that butt sex is evil.
    D. King: “So, enjoy your easy life and tell us again how enlightened you are.”
    This is silly. You’re telling me that a gay sergeant hitting on some PFC in the shower is a threat to our national security?? If only this was our biggest danger.
    My first career was in the theatre and as a 19-yr.-old stage hand I was hit on all the time by older gay men. With the nice ones I was able to just laugh it off and say “no.” With the aggressive ones I had to tell them go f— themselves. With one guy I had to put a picture of a severed penis in his locker–message received.
    If this nonsense had persisted I would have been able to file sexual harassment charges, just like in today’s military.
    Todd: “One only needs to be the recipient of unwanted advances time and again, whether female or male to understand that sex trumps everything, just like Freud laid out in his works.”
    Why Todd, this is very revealing. First you tell us that women in the TCA swoon when you walk through the scanning machine, and now you indicate you’ll go any which way if the advances are relentless. Interesting.
    Next topic please.

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  31. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    MichaelA, no, I likw women exclusively. However, you appear to be conflicted. BTW, do you agree or not with Freud?

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  32. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    I think Freud had some interesting ideas, but I also think that some elements of his body of study now appear to have come from a 19th century crank, with personal issues. Modern brain science has put into question many of his suppositions.
    I follow a blog called “Whiskey and Gunpowder.” Here’s what a Marine just posted:
    “I served the Marine Corps through the partial or complete tenures of three commandants (Generals PX Kelley, Al Gray and Carl Mundy) and served with a fourth (General Charles Krulak).
    During that time period, with one and only one exception (an immigrant worker trailer park confiscated for use as billeting by I MEF) if I roomed with only one other person, I invariably did so in about 24 square feet of adjoined shelter half.
    Usually, I roomed with anywhere from 10 (in a GP tent) to 70 (in a squad bay) other Marines.
    Nobody gave a tinker’s damn what anyone else’s sexual orientation was, because…military service Is. Not. About. F*cking.
    The mission of the Marine rifle squad is to locate, close with, and destroy the enemy by fire and maneuver, and to repel the enemy’s assault by fire and close combat.
    The mission of every other Marine Corps element is to support the Marine Rifle Squad.
    Pursuant to that, you go where you’re told, and you sleep where you’re told to sleep, including, if necessary, packed 30 Marines deep into the back of a 5-ton truck intended to carry 16 (Q: “How many Marines can fit in that truck?” A: “One more”).
    People who waste their time worrying about who might be staring at their a$$es in the shower don’t have what it takes to be Marines.”
    D.King, take note.

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  33. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    “I had to tell them go f— themselves. With one guy I had to put a picture of a severed penis in his locker–message received.”
    WTF!
    Forget what I said about being enlightened,
    real, or imagined.

    Like

  34. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    60% of our servicemen in combat zones have a different view. That’s OK, if you want to believe the fantasy, go for it. Please address the ramifications of the Navy ship pregnancies. How do you think lovers with a child in the oven would react to a attack on the other by the enemy?

    Like

  35. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    “People who waste their time worrying about who might be staring at their a$$es in the shower don’t have what it takes to be Marines.
    D.King, take note.”
    Please state any direct evidence you have….
    Oh yeah….none!
    But thanks for playing.
    Not surprised that your arrogance allows you to
    determine what it takes to be a Marine. You, and
    your like, are always experts on things you know
    nothing about. You got what you wanted, so enjoy
    the thought that you’ve added an additional burden
    to our troops.
    You’re my new hero.

    Like

  36. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    He was borderline sexually harassing me. It was actually done in a joking way, us theatre types can play rough but it’s mixed with a lot of love. We laughed about it afterward. You had to have been there.
    Clearly the Navy needs to get a better handle on things. Are these pregnancies out of wedlock? I’m not aware of the details of this situation.

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  37. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    I also acted locally and in Palm Springs many years ago. I was never bothered by cast or crew but the women in the audience were something else. They swooned and followed me all over the place. It was fun!

    Like

  38. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Oh, regarding the Navy, this has been heavily reported for a long tome. Why do you have no knowledge? You seem to have knowledge on everything, what gives?

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  39. George Rebane Avatar

    On selected media outlets there is a lot of discussion of the new DADT repeal. Some more aspects people are putting on the table include –
    • While gays under DADT behaved in most ways the same as their straight comrades while on various duty stations from combat to forward to CONUS, will they do so under the new regime? What will the effect be on, say, dependents with children in base housing exposed to openly gay relationships in the daily round?
    • A strong claim for repealing DADT was that it prevented many gays from signing up for our all volunteer military. Now the truth of this claim should be apparent very soon. And it could shed light on the notion that demographically gays overwhelmingly populate the anti-military contingent of socio-political thought in the country.

    Like

  40. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    That was for MichaelA George. Sorry if you misunderstood.

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  41. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    “…demographically gays overwhelmingly populate the anti-military contingent of socio-political thought in the country. “
    That is what it’s all about George.
    The only reason I engage in a back and forth
    at all, is that we have real people in the field.
    Whether it’s AB32 and Global warming, DADT,
    or the attempt to silence critics, the end game
    is the same; the loss of liberty.
    This is next on the plate.
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703395204576023452250748540.html
    My prediction is this will also be where the
    agenda of the far left dies, along with what
    shredded creditability they have left.
    http://www.roflcorner.com/wp-content/gallery/facepalm/facepalmbq8dj7.jpg

    Like

  42. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    Todd asked: “Why do you have no knowledge [of Navy pregnancies]?”
    Ummm, maybe because this is the 21st century and I thought this was an old story that had long been put to bed? But, because you raised the issue during this DADT thread (for what point I am not exactly sure, since any first-year medical student will confirm that it is 100% impossible for anyone to get pregnant via butt or lesbian sex), I went ahead and did about 2 minutes research on this terrible problem.
    This is what I found: “The Navy has strict rules against sexual relationships between men and women while on duty or between commissioned officers and enlisted personnel, but Commander Smallwood said there was no evidence any such regulations were broken.” This was from a story in 1991 in the New York Times (http://nyti.ms/fYUnjX) about 36 women on the supply ship Acadia becoming pregnant while on board. Turns out that “Navy spokesman, Lieut. Comdr. Jeff Smallwood, said there were no indications of improper fraternization between men and women on the ship.”
    These are young people, Todd. They want to have families, just like when you and I were young. They get shore leave, see a movie, have a night-cap, walk hand-in-hand back to the housing unit with hubby and bada-boom. The Navy decided in 1975 that having women in the military who might get pregnant and have to take some time off was overwhelmed by the incredible service that they were able to provide. Just as in the civilian sector, like around the time of WWII.
    Todd, you need to go check your pinup calender in the garage. It appears you may have forgotten to turn the page since 1941.

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  43. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    You still don’t get the question and I thought you were one of the smarter ones on these threads. There are many stories in recent times about what has happened with fraternization. That is the issue, boiled down to its simplest. But, I can see you are unable or incapable of getting the issue, so I will move on to others and help them understand.

    Like

  44. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    Thanks for your reply, Todd. Sorry, I’m not trying to be thick. It’s just that it seems pretty clear.
    “The Navy has strict rules against sexual relationships between men and women while on duty or between commissioned officers and enlisted personnel.”
    If those rules aren’t being followed, and standard military discipline processes that have been used since forever aren’t working, the problem isn’t fraternization. It’s a problem of either military discipline not being upheld or being so complicated when it comes to the fraternization rules that they’re too difficult to follow.
    Just like in any work situation, sometimes people are going to fall in love. But there are consequences, sometimes meaning one of the persons has to leave her job, or leave the service in this case. For example: http://en.allexperts.com/q/Military-Law-927/Fraternization.htm

    Like

  45. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    D. King, my replies are below:

    Not surprised that your arrogance allows you
    to determine what it takes to be a Marine.
    I was just passing along a quote from a Marine who thinks openly gay people should be allowed to serve in the military. I said nothing about my opinions on what it takes to be a Marine. So don’t put words in my mouth.
    You, and your like, are always experts on
    things you know nothing about.
    Who am I and what is my “like?” You don’t know, do you? An arrogant and ignorant statement, D. King.
    You got what you wanted, so enjoy the
    thought that you’ve added an additional
    burden to our troops.
    I will do no such thing because that is not even close to what has happened. There is no additional burden on the troops. It’s made-up nonsense.
    Wait, I take that back. I was listening to Rush today and people were calling in to lament that soldiers would now have to tolerate “deviant behavior,” behavior that would surely keep the gay soldiers out of heaven. So I will agree with you that intolerant and bigoted troops will have an additional burden. I hope they can deal with it so they don’t end up in the brig.
    You’re my new hero.
    And you are mine, D. King.

    Like

  46. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    George brought up the following points:

    What will the effect be on, say, dependents
    with children in base housing exposed to openly
    gay relationships in the daily round?
    Families with children in neighborhoods all around the world are exposed to openly gay relationships. If they are civilians and it makes them uncomfortable they can move somewhere else. If they are in the military and it makes them uncomfortable, they might be able to change their living situation. If they can’t, that’s the way it goes for enlistees who must abide by the UCMJ.
    It could shed light on the notion that
    demographically gays overwhelmingly populate
    the anti-military contingent of socio-political
    thought in the country.
    I think we can agree that gay people who want to join the military are not anti-military. Here is a recent Jeff Ackerman editorial telling the story of Tony Loverde: http://www.theunion.com/article/20101109/NEWS/101109743&parentprofile=search
    And here is a story about gay Marines who plan on re-enlisting now that DADT has been overturned: http://www.live5news.com/Global/story.asp?S=13711897
    Back during the GW Bush era, there were stories of military interpreters who were fluent in Arab languages who were gay and had to exit the service, leaving our military woefully inadequate to the task of navigating the Iraqi culture while that war was still very hot. This was an example where DADT cost American soldiers their lives.
    Lastly, if your demographical contention is true, perhaps gays and lesbians were anti-military because they weren’t allowed to enlist.

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  47. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    “I hope they can deal with it so they don’t end up in the brig.”
    Now that’s a good battle plan!
    “Who am I and what is my “like?” You don’t know, do you?”
    Your musings reveal you.
    “I was just passing along a quote from a Marine who thinks openly gay people should be allowed to serve in the military.”
    A blog Marine, or a real one?
    Barry Goldwater!….sorry I panicked.

    Like

  48. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    I think we’re almost done here, D. King. Nicely played all around.
    Last question: How did your gay friends feel about your support of DADT?

    Like

  49. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    “Last question: How did your gay friends feel about your support of DADT?”
    Touché!

    Like

  50. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Again
    Can we let Barry Goldwater (1991) have the last word on this tired topic.
    “We have wasted enough precious time, money and talent trying to persecute and pretend. It’s time to stop burying our heads in the sand and denying reality for the sake of politics. It’s time to deal with this straight on and be done with it. It’s time to get on with more important business.
    Years ago, I was a lieutenant in charge of an all-black unit. Military leaders at the time believed that blacks lacked leadership potential – period. That seems ridiculous now, as it should. Now, each and every man and woman who serves this nation takes orders from a black man – our own Gen. Colin Powell.
    Nobody thought that blacks or women could ever be integrated into the military. Many thought that an all-volunteer force could never protect our national interest. Well, it has, and despite those who feared the worst – I among them – we are still the best and will continue to be.”

    Like

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