Rebane's Ruminations
December 2010
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George Rebane

"Marx and Engels never tried to refute their opponents with argument. They insulted, ridiculed, derided, slandered, and traduced them, and in the use of these methods their followers are not less expert. Their polemic is directed never against the argument of the opponent, but always against his person."  Socialism (1951), Ludwig von Mises

Polemics – the art or practice of argumentation; especially countering the beliefs and principles of another person.  I am heartened at the general progress we are making on the local blog posts and their attendant comment threads.  The number and intensity of ad hominem ripostes is definitely going down.  And often the comments are excellent and well written amplifications and/or redirections of the topic(s) introduced in the posts.

Also I have noticed that certain readers are beginning to make a difference between calling someone, say, an idiot, and calling their idea idiotic or referring to a general class of idiots holding such an idea – there is a difference.  Unfortunately others still cannot distinguish between the arguer and their argument, but here hope springs eternal.  To me it is a joy to read a churchillian retort whose entendres not only demolish the target argument, but in its more nuanced reading uncovers the camouflaged barb that encourages and even accomplishes a more penetrating mission – perhaps the essence of artful polemics and a joy to the attentive reader.

(As an example, my all-time favorite churchillian retort is said to have been given in Parliament to one of Churchill’s great detractors.  In utter frustration the man shouted, ‘Sir, may you either die on the gallows or of a vile disease!’  To which the great Churchill immediately responded, ‘Sir, that will come to pass only if I embrace your principles or your mistress.’)

No doubt there are simpletons on whom such literary labors are lost.  But let’s not lose heart when such encounters occur.  For then it is an entertainment to watch them miss the point while still claiming its grasp.

There also seems to be more than a little confusion on the notion of what constitutes ‘name calling’.  It is one thing to state that ‘John Doe is a (pejorative label).’  Clearly John Doe has been called a name and the caller seeks to attach to John Doe all the attributes, explicit and implied, that go with the pejorative label.

Then we have the case where a class of people is delineated with perhaps a number of spelled out attributes.  The class is then appended with a pejorative label.  No specific individuals are named in this exercise.  Upon reading the described screed, John Doe sees that he possesses some or all of the enumerated attributes, enough so that he may claim or by others be assigned membership in the class in question.

At this point John Doe has neither been identified nor called a pejorative name by the writer/speaker.  For one, John Doe might not agree that the pejorative label is a proper descriptor of the class, therefore there can be no attachment of the pejorative label to himself, no matter his membership.   And even if John Doe does accept the class label, it is then he who pins that pejorative to himself in the process of an extended association.  In any event, the original piece has attached no pejorative label to John Doe.  As appropriate, that task is left to subsequent efforts.

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68 responses to “An Invitation to More Artful Polemics”

  1. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    George, you may want to look up that Churchill quoits. I had always heard that that was Disraeli to Gladstone.
    You may be thinking of church ills famous Lady Astor quote.
    Lady Astor says to Winston, “if you were my husband I would put arsenic in your coffee.” Winston replies,” if you were my wife, I would drink it”

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  2. George Rebane Avatar

    Steve, you may be right, but I have seen it attributed also to Churchill. And to my knowledge, the Lady Astor riposte has only one source, Churchill. Another famous one that has been attributed to Mark Twain and Will Rogers is ‘It ain’t what you don’t know that worries me, it’s what you know that ain’t so.’

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  3. Mikey McD Avatar

    Is it still ok to call our president a liar when he fails to tell the truth? As I complimented Obama this a.m. to a group of friends I was forwarded a link to his “tax deal press conference.” In this press conference he REPEATEDLY says that republicans were/are against middle class tax cuts. This is a lie. I wish he was capable of telling the truth and not using the podium to bash republicans with lies. I sincerely want to respect our president, but, his lack of integrity makes it difficult.
    http://video.foxnews.com/v/4450811/obama-good-deal-for-the-american-people

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  4. kim pruett Avatar

    Mike,
    I watched the press conference as well and was very disappointed with the spin. I too was complimenting the President this morning in the fact that he is listening to the voters and trying to work with Republicans. After watching the press conference, I felt very disapointed and I think the American people are getting tired of the spin from both sides of the aisle, the truth would be nice for a change even if we do not like what it is. Sometimes the truth hurts but if we do not have truth we do not have integrity, and there in lies the problem. Self preservation and politics are more important to some of our elected officials than doing the right thing. President Obama did the right thing by working to extend tax cuts for every American during the worst economic crisis we have had in years, he should be commended for that, but the political spin he is creating in the aftermath to apease his party are distasteful and wrong.

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  5. RL Crabb Avatar

    Who’s spinning who? The Dems and Repubs just did what they always do, put off the hard choices to make everybody happy. So the Wall St. gazillionaires can buy a new BMW for Christmas, knowing they won’t have to pay for the problems they helped to create. The unemployed can put off reality for a while longer. All the while, the debt grows like a malignant tumor and politicians fiddle around the edges.
    One can only hope that next year these warring dinosaurs can quit stomping on the country long enough to make some real worthwhile reforms, starting with the tax code.
    However, it seems unlikely that the Repubs will ever agree with anything that might cost money. The strategery(sic) is obvious; starve the beast. Nothing less than the total dismantling of the public safety net, so that the “sheeple” will be cowed enough to go back to work for wages that are competitive with the Asian labor markets.Repeal the 17th amendment so the corporations and their hand-picked politicians can stuff the Senate full of yes men. Hang the lawyers. Stuff the homos back in the closet and nail it shut.
    Victory will be sweet for the robber barons. A return to 19th century values and the Gilded Age. Who says time travel isn’t possible?

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  6. RL Crabb Avatar

    Is that enough hyberbole for you? I just can’t help myself…And don’t get the idea that my ranting is an endorsement of the Democrats. I have no use for any party that doesn’t see the value in balance.

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  7. George Rebane Avatar

    Wow Bob! That little essay deserves a title all of its own. When ‘balance’ is called for, I always wonder where to stick the fulcrum. Everyone else seems to know; am I the only one who has trouble with that concept?

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  8. kim pruett Avatar

    Wow Bob! Of course balance is the key to life and I hope we find it somehow regardless of party or political ideaology, this is about prosperity for ALL americans.

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  9. Mikey McD Avatar

    One man’s safety net is another man’s noose.
    “Robber Barons” cannot exist without the backing of a too powerful government.
    “to go back to work for wages that are competitive with the Asian labor markets”: Our under performing GOVERNMENT/UNION RUN education system (see today’s WSJ- even Obama cited it at his press conference) IS the reason why, not republican strategy.
    “real worthwhile reforms, starting with the tax code.” this is on top of the repubs agenda.
    “Starve the best”- is the best way to kill “a malignant tumor.” Starving this beast sooner than later would benefit us all.

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  10. RL Crabb Avatar

    I would rather see a leaner, cleaner beast rather than a dead one. By the way, I saw some Republican today (didn’t catch his name) who is advocating that only property owners should be allowed to vote. Welcome to apartheid! That should balance out things just fine.

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  11. Mikey McD Avatar

    On the surface one could argue that only those who pay federal income taxes should be able to vote… but, that would cut out 55% of Americans and countless illegals.
    Yes, a leaner, cleaner beast is the goal.

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  12. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    George, since you support a progressive income tax which Mikey clearly does not, the fulcrum is probably right where it belongs: it is a force of nature.
    I too have noticed the calming of the blogosphere but attributed it to the passing of the election.
    One of my favorites is “but if I agree with you then we’ll both be wrong.”

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  13. George Rebane Avatar

    Actually Michael, the range of a progressive income tax that I support is almost akin to a flat tax.
    In 1949-50 we were dirt poor refugee immigrants, my father earned $40/wk ($2,080/yr) working nights in a New England thread mill. He paid over 17% federal income tax that was then applicable to the lowest tax bracket for wages up to $4K/yr. My dad was proud to pay that tax since it allowed all of us to look around and know that we were helping to keep the country going. We lived in a one room apartment and shared bath and kitchen with the landlady. My parents knew twenty words of English between them and the Woolworth clerk snickered at their inability to make themselves understood (I was the embarrassed translator). But every month it got a little bit better.
    It’s still hard for me to take any crap from the socialists about the able bodied poor sitting on their asses and bitching about not enough wealth redistribution in this great country. They haven’t a clue about what poor is.
    (Sorry Michael, you touched a nerve.)

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  14. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    No problem George, now we know a bit about future chapters.
    The “poor” are not all the same. Chronic multi-generational poor are different than the immigrant poor. The “rich” are different too. These aren’t very descriptive categories.
    In RL Crabb’s rant above, as well as Mikey’s note, I think we get to the true nature of the problem. There are some “poor” people who don’t pay any income taxes and yet seem to have enough money for nice cars, fancy cell phones, designer labels, and plasma screens. There are a lot of “rich” people who also don’t pay any income taxes, because the tax code is easily manipulated. We need real tax reform if we are to have any hope of ever paying down our debt.
    I don’t like income taxes because they are costly to administer and difficult to police. Besides, why tax something that we want to encourage? This is why we give mortgage deductions, because we want to provide an incentive for people to own the place where they live. But I’m also not a big fan of luxury or punishment taxes either.
    I like taxes that are low, fair, and can’t be avoided. If you can make a flat tax do those three things, I will vote for it.

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  15. George Rebane Avatar

    Excellent Michael! I think we can work out a flat tax that will indeed do that since thaose are its marquee attributes. But starting on the path of mortgage deductions, etc is the slippery slope that got us here, and produced the monster we call our tax code.

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  16. RL Crabb Avatar

    Forgive my ranting, George. My nerves get touched too, when I see the continual ‘my way or the highway’ approach to solving the monumental problems that confront our nation. It goes both ways, and I get it from the left as well as the right.
    The latest “compromise” from Washington is just the latest example. Everybody wins in the short term, and we all lose in the long run. If I was king, instead of just being the village idiot, I would have done it this way…Bump the taxable rate up to $1M+ from $250K, and extend unemployment insurance six months with the understanding that when it runs out, the well is dry.
    Is it the perfect solution? Of course not, but it would be a realistic beginning to get back to solvency. There will be suffering for rich and poor before things get better.
    In the meantime, the rhetoric continues to dribble from the quivering lips of politicians and pundits on both sides of the aisle. Time to get real.

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  17. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    Bob – I would like to know why you can offer a plan and yet criticize others who offer a plan as “my way or the highway”? Reb or Dem matters not, we have been traveling steadily to the left for decades if not longer and it’s not doing any good. Balance would be a big time move to lessen govt control in many areas of our lives and economy. We will always need a strong, but limited govt to maintain our liberties and ensure open, fair and honest play. This ain’t it. We don’t have a free market any more and the only reason we have robber barons is due to the actions of govt. A private company or corporation or individual can never take one dime from me that I don’t want to spend without the intrusion of the govt. A lot of what you don’t like about the health insurance industry, for example is due to govt regulations that prevent an open and free market. The fed govt is bloated completely out of control, and the promised entitlements were never feasible from the start. You want one more round of unemployment and then it’s cut off? Good luck with that. Just one more drink – honest I’ll stop. Almost everyone on unemployment has blown past the deadline (some many times) and what good did it do? It makes people expect that there won’t be any end to their unemployment and they won’t take getting a job seriously. I know things are tough and jobs are hard to find. The only time the American govt “created jobs” in big enough numbers to do us any good was WWII. The aftermath left all other industrial nations reeling and our country intact. That just won’t happen again. Another war like that and we will be reeling. We need to set the stage for growth and full employment. This idiot notion that we can get the economy going again if we just had enough room on the credit card for endless shopping at Walmart is totally nuts. We need to mine, extract and produce and manufacture wanted and needed goods. We are going to have to accept wages that reflect the true value of what the wage earner adds to the company or person they work for. Along with lower wages we need a cost of living that does not add in all of the taxes and regulations that people have been led to believe would be paid for by some one else. I’m afraid this would mean just too big a shock to our people. The average citizen (and politician) hasn’t had to be responsible for their own lives and actions for so long, I don’t think they can make the leap. So I guess we are just going to stumble along further towards something we already know leads to ruin. And sadly, I think that’s just what a lot of folks actually want.

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  18. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    It pains me to see a segment of my fellow American’s targeted/discriminated against by the government/IRS. We are expected to hate the wealthy at tax time and depend on them when the bills come due (“justice” through the tax code is no justice at all). One could just as easily attack those in the “Art and Entertainment” field (including artists/comics/movie stars) via the I.R.S juggernaut- I would not support such discrimination.
    Flat tax contains far more integrity than the progressive (“Besides, why tax something that we want to encourage?”) class warfare racket we have now.

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  19. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    Crabb, I agree with the “we all lose in the long run” conclusion. With the expected tax bill the dems get to buy votes via extending unemployment insurance and the repubs exchange would-be taxes on the upper class for future political contributions/votes. All the while we get handed more debt, a weaker dollar, higher gas prices…

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  20. RL Crabb Avatar

    Scott and Mikey, I don’t necessarily disagree with your view of government. It’s been a pet peeve of mine for decades. Personally, I despise debt more than anything, and I’ve spent most of my life steering clear of it. The credit card mentality is the main cause of the ongoing crisis, be it citizen or politician.
    But I still believe the government bears some responsibility in the well-being and security of its citizens. While you might not like social security and medicare, I saw how much difference it made in my parents declining years, and I support the concept. I’d agree that they’re run inefficiently and need reform, but I doubt any free market solution could do better. It’s probably something that we will never agree on.
    As for my “compromise”, whether Dems and Repubs like it, we ARE all in this together, and we all will be asked to sacrifice something on the altar of Greater Good. It’s in the interest of national survival.

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  21. RL Crabb Avatar

    And on the unemployment question…I’m not enough of a Gingrinch to cut people off in the middle of December, but make it clear that the money is gone come June. That would be better than the one year deal that’s on the table now.

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  22. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    RL Crabb wrote: “As for my ‘compromise,’ whether Dems and Repubs like it or not, we ARE all in this together…”
    Bob, it’s all about political reform in my book.
    In today’s NYT, Brooks and Collins go at it regarding this very subject–
    David Brooks: “The problem with a parliamentary system is that you have to endure every governing fad. There is no check on the power of the majority, so you get these wild policy swings.”
    Gail Collins: “Looking out at the planet lately, I’ve noticed that the countries that seem to be doing best at handling the problems that get thrown at them generally have governments that are structured to actually make decisions — whether because they’re a dictatorship like China or because, like many of the more functional parliamentary democracies, they work on a system in which the party that wins the election then has the power to produce results.”

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  23. RL Crabb Avatar

    Michael,
    The Democrats had enough seats to do anything they wanted, but didn’t have the votes. Too many blue dogs and too many hard core leftists. In the end they couldn’t even sell their own brand to themselves. The Republicans have never been able to get those kind of numbers, but have been successful at peeling off Democrats to win the day.
    Conclusion: It’s more of a center-right country, with emphasis on ‘center’. A total right wing government will have trouble governing as well, mainly because their own kind of social engineering (forced morality) will be as repugnant to freedom-loving people as big mommy government.

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  24. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    Agreed Bob.

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  25. Bob Hobert Avatar
    Bob Hobert

    Wow! Everybody must have had the day off. Thanks to all for the fine reading. My two cents is: I’m for all the compassionate spending the taxpayers are willingly pay for – up front.

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  26. George Rebane Avatar
    George Rebane

    Knock on wood Bob,knock on wood.

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  27. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    Bob, the left is all about forced morality. Not sure what you are afraid of from the conservatives. Freedom and liberty can be scary to some, I guess.

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  28. RL Crabb Avatar

    Tell it to the gays who get kicked out of the military for serving their country. When you deny the rights of one group, we all suffer.

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  29. RL Crabb Avatar

    Today I read the text of Michael Bloomberg’s speech at the Brooklyn Navy Yard. He sounds like a man who is seriously thinking about running for President, and he has the billions to back him up. I may not agree with everything he says, but it sure sounds a lot better than anything I hear coming from the Dems and Repubs.
    I’ll bet there many nervous people in both camps tonight.

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  30. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    Gays can serve in the military. Always have and will. Overwhelming majority of them are not kicked out or punished. The military kicks out lots of folks for lots of reasons. It’s the military – you loose rights when you join. If you don’t like it, don’t enlist. The left is cramming their morality down my throat 24/7. What I eat, how I live, what I read and how I move around. The lefts’ leaders are, of course, exempt from the rules of the new morality and can live as they choose. Bloomberg??? Biggest hypocrite around. I’ll take Bobby Jindal any day.

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  31. George Rebane Avatar

    You raise an interesting subject Scott – the comparative moral dictates of the left vs the right. Which side compels what kinds of personal behavior on 1) their members, on 2) society as a whole. The USSR began as and maintained throughout its existence an extreme public moral order. It was one of the many inconvenient truths that our leftwing media forgot to report about the inevitable ‘enforced altruism’ that all collectivist regimes implement. In communist countries you could be executed for behavior the collective judged immoral (this was most prominent as recently as China’s Cultural Revolution).
    It would be interesting to compile a list of such behaviors that each side claims the other proscribes on moral grounds.

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  32. Mikey McD Avatar

    George I have not found a better description than Ayn Rand’s “Man’s Rights” on the subject of moral law. Her logic is impeccable.
    Just a taste:
    “Individual rights are the means of subordinating society to moral law…The most profoundly revolutionary achievement of the United States of America was the subordination of society to moral law. The principle of man’s individual rights represented the extension of morality into the social system—as a limitation on the power of the state, as man’s protection against the brute force of the collective, as the subordination of might to right. The United States was the first moral society in history.”
    http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=arc_ayn_rand_man_rights

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  33. RL Crabb Avatar

    “Don’t ask, don’t tell” is as much of an anacronism in the 21st century as racial segregation was in the 20th. It’s true that some in the military came out on their own to protest the discrimination, many others have been thrown to the wolves by their co-workers. I always thought personal responsibility was a conservative value, but it seems there is a double standard here.
    Martin Luther King could have said, “Let us not be judged by the color of our underwear, but by the content of our character.”
    As for compiling a list of grievances, I agree that the left comes out on top. The right just can’t stay in power long enough to catch up.

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  34. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    Yes, this needs to be explained further – all societies have laws that govern behavior and morals. Even here, though, it’s not a clear left vs. right or liberty vs. tight control.
    The right for instance, is typified as being controlled by Christians blue-noses and yet a lot of the far right is actually leaders and thinkers such as Ayn Rand that are atheists.
    There are folks on the right that like personal liberty but would also severely limit porn and cursing in printed and public speech. There is a good case that such communication is not covered by the 1st amendment, but I would be swimming upstream in today’s society to advocate that. It seems that vulgar language and images are the mark of intellectual thought according to many today. We will never accommodate everyone’s idea of how to live, but this new wave of control on our lives by the left (Rep and Dem and Green) is just stifling nonsense. My carbon footprint is the way to now control all of my activity just as the Catholics once controlled via the govt all activity of the populace. The leaders at the top, of course, pay indulgences and are exempt from the law to which I must bow. M Bloomberg is one of the worst. It is un-American and un-constitutional to not have equal application of the law.

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  35. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    Bob – I wasn’t aware that the military denied promotions based on sexual orientation. This is not the same as how we openly mistreated people of African descent in this country. Not sure I understand the personal responsibility double standard here.

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  36. RL Crabb Avatar

    It’s not just your carbon footprint, Scott. There is the Patriot Act to some degree, and the monitoring of all transactions and conversations made possible by the internet. Privacy is becoming extinct in this Brave New World, and both left and right use it to their advantage.
    And personal responsibility just means your conduct in relation to those with whom you serve. Nothing to do with promotions.

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  37. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    Bob – I’m not happy with that either, but that would mostly be BO’s doing, not Bush. Privacy is a slightly different issue anyway. I’m going back to your original assertion that it is the right that will crush us with their moral standards. We really have the same privacy we have always had. If you go on the internet, you are at the town square in front of everyone. That is the nature of the internet and has nothing to do with any govt. Can there be abuses? Absolutely and we must stay vigilant. It’s Barry’s boys that are coming in with the new rules about the internet. That would be the left. And there are the food fascists (the left) and the PC nonsense (the left) and on and on. It’s the left that’s bearing down with a intent to control my life so I will be a more “moral” person. The left screamed like hell when there was a big boost to the conservatives by the evangelic Christians and we were lectured constantly that this was an unconstitutional mixing of church and state. Now the left is openly using the left wing so-called Christians to push for “social justice” and saving the environment. And I’m sorry, but I still have no idea what in the world you are referring to about the conservatives advocating a double standard on personal responsibility. When you enlist, you agree to shut up, get in line and become an integral part of a cohesive fighting force. You can not start telling the military that they have to accept your lifestyle. There is the military lifestyle and that’s it. Are there abuses? You bet – men and women have both complained. The military deals with it the best they can. This is all voluntary remember – no one made you join. And you knew the score and accepted it when you signed on. That’s personal responsibility.

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  38. RL Crabb Avatar

    Well, if I had a nickel for every sleazy businessperson/developer/scam artist I’ve met that hid behind the veil of conservatism, I’d be as rich as they are. That’s why I advocate balance.
    We’re not going to agree on the gays in the military question, so I don’t see any point in continuing the conversation.

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  39. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    OK Bob, I see your problem. You are confusing a body of political thought with some people you don’t like who claim to embody that thought. You have to separate the 2 and decide if you want to rant about people you don’t like or discuss the issues. There are a lot of folks of all political persuasions that I don’t care for, for a lot of reasons. There are a lot of folks I do like of all political stripes. None of that alters what is the best way to move a country forward socially and economically. Your idea of balance is that we should drink a balance of poison and food in order to live healthy lives. Socialism/Communism/Progressive are all poison to this country. We are going down the tubes because of this left wing poison and all you can do is hang on to childish grudges against those who you feel have wronged you. M Bloomberg is a crony capitalist who will get stinking rich on your back and mine and you like him? I’m getting way mixed signals here. I wasn’t trying to come to an agreement on gays in the military – I was honestly trying to understand what point you were trying to make about how conservatives had a double standard.

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  40. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    A target rich environment…
    Obermuller, Ayn Rand was not “far right” unless you believe anyone with principled opposition to the far left must be far right. One dimensional thinking. She also couldn’t stand libertarians, and some of that seemed to be that she was ticked off some of her Objectivist ideals were being used without attribution.
    Anderson, it used to be that all interest paid to someone else was tax deductible, not just mortgages. Not to encourage borrowing, but because interest paid to someone else was income to them, and any income taxes due would be paid by them. The mortgage interest deduction is the only interest deduction left due to attrition, and the Feds also want that money taxed twice.
    Regarding the name calling, Pelline is a master at it. His rants against the “extreme right”, and his desire to put those who argue against his sillier ideas into the “extreme right” camp fits right into the “They insulted, ridiculed, derided, slandered, and traduced them” methods that George wrote of.

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  41. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    Well, she is to most so that’s why I called her that. Hard to place an exact comparative on where she falls on the right compared to others. My point was that someone that says they are afraid of the enforced morals of the right seems to not understand that there is no monolithic “right” to be afraid of. The left is where the new prudes, bluenoses. and life-style fascists are.

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  42. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    Scott, why are you stuck on a one dimensional mapping of anything as complex as politics?
    I doubt many who self identify as “far right” would identify an atheist who doesn’t believe in coercive government as one of their own.

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  43. George Rebane Avatar

    Greg, Scott – we hear a lot about the label ‘far right’, what would each of you consider to be the, say, core attributes of someone who is properly labeled far right?
    I am often called that and my ideology is here for all to see. Being an anti-collectivist, my other beliefs can be well summarized by the Bastiat Triangle rights, limited government, fiscal prudence, capitalism/free markets, and original intent constitutionalism. By all historical records our Founders were then ‘far right’. Or is there some other declared (vs gratuitously ascribed) attribute that makes me far right in some people’s eyes?

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  44. Greg Goodknight Avatar
    Greg Goodknight

    Hell if I know, George. Pelline uses it as a label to marginalize his opponents, and I suspect that is what most uses of “far” or “extreme” -anything boils down to.
    Politics is very tribal.

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  45. RL Crabb Avatar

    Scott, forgive me for my brief answer to your questions. Being it is December, with Christmas and all and dealing with a yard full of tree limbs and debris, I haven’t had time to sit down and go into the issues you brought up.
    Let me just say it’s not so much Bloomberg I admire, but the message in his recent speech. Basically, where I’m coming from is that America is a deeply divided nation, and at this juncture in our history it seems like people of all stripes and persuasions need to come together to find whatever common ground we can. The alternative is what we are experiencing now: gridlock, animosity, a failure to come to terms with the structural failures that are leading us toward insolvency.
    The problem I have with liberals and conservatives is that both sides seem to believe they can have it all, and reject any solutions that are not ideologically pure. The idea that one or the other can dominate the country for more than a decade is ludicrous. I wholeheartedly agree with you that the left side is full of elitist, politically correct jackanapes, but I don’t see a return to the boom/bust dog eat dog world of free markets and puritanical scarlet letter morality as any more realistic in our global 21st century.
    Like I said, I don’t have the time to go into every specific issue and provide supporting links, etc. I am just going on my own life experience at this point.
    I’ve seen the good, bad and ugly of politics, and I believe we can do better.

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  46. RL Crabb Avatar

    As to the gay/military question, DADT is flawed in that it sets up situations where soldiers can be blackmailed and intimidated because of their orientation. Should a career soldier be kicked out after twenty years of service simply because he or she has been “outed” but done nothing wrong?
    Personal responsibility is doing the job your country has asked of you. Gay soldiers should be held to the same standard as a straight colonel who has an affair with his secretary. If someone joins the service just to look for sexual partners or to be outrageous, then there is no place for them in the armed forces.
    I take it that you are of Germanic/Teutonic heritage. Back in the eighties, my landlady, who was almost 100 at the time, used to call me up and speak for extended periods on her philosophy and politics. (She was valedictorian of her class at Berkeley, which included Earl Warren.) She really hated Germans, and would go on about how they were the scourge of the 20th century and should never be trusted. I listened politely, but never bought into it. To me, it was the prejudice of another era, when folks could be excluded and marginalized because of their heritage or skin color. The classic example being the Jews, who are not a race, but have been blamed for every evil in the world for centuries.
    Gays have lived among us since the beginning of time, and they will not go away because we don’t approve of them. In this century, it is merely another wall that is slowly coming down.
    And by the way, I’m married to a German/American.

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  47. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    So much to reply to here. First of all, I’m not stuck on one dimensional political labels. Clear back to the 70’s I’ve had discussions with friends about the need for 2 and 3 dimensional models for social and political positions. I was responding there to what I felt was a position that had already been simplified to a left vs right position. There (sadly) is always a need to simplify things a bit. I was viewing the left in that case as a more controlling govt vs right as the less controlling govt. Sorry if that’s not complete enough or if I mis-judged the original position that I was responding to. Personally I feel that the Constitution lays out a nice, middle of the road, balanced federal govt. State govts. are free to be as constrictive and taxation heavy as they wish. Folks can vote with their feet. And they are. Anything less controlled (Ayn Rand) is farther to the right, but not much IMHO. I’m not sure that being a Christian or not has anything to do with being conservative vs liberal or left vs right. Hard to quantify this. Obama is more easily measured. He has a voting record in the Il state leg and in the Senate. He is as far left as anyone. That is a metric that has been used for years. His stated positions and views, as well as his appointments have shown him to be a socialist/communist as far as I can tell. I don’t consider that to be name calling, just realistic. He has a right to those views, as I do mine. I would consider myself a free-market conservative, but also a liberal in the classic sense that has, sadly become nearly obsolete and so I don’t use that term for myself. And Bob, yes we do need to come together and make our country better. This country has tried a fed govt control of the economy coupled with un-Constitutional socialism for decades and it is falling apart for the exact reasons given years ago by the “right wing nuts”. The people that correctly called it were not right wing or extremist, just middle of the road Constitutionalists. The feds have no legal right to dole out money for food stamps, housing, unemployment, education, arts, or special perks, state or city or private business bailouts. Period. That is the opinion of the people that wrote the Constitution and they warned us that not following it would lead to a loss of our republic. And we are certainly headed there. Finally, for now, I have never called for getting rid of homosexuals. Where on earth did that come from? The topic was gays in the American military. They agree to the rules when they enlist. Crying about it afterward is the height of personal irresponsibility.
    Blackmail is not acceptable in or out of the military, but gays know they are more vulnerable than than others once they are in. BTW, I have a kraut last name, but I’m a mixture of Scotch, Irish, English, Czech, German, and Goodness knows what else. Probably more Irish (persecuted minority) and Czech (sold out to oppression by the west, TWICE) than anything else. And my gay friends think I’m a closet homo. My wife disagrees. And yes, I too, need to go out and finish clearing dead branches.

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  48. RL Crabb Avatar

    I was at a birthday party for a friend a while back. Like you, he has a Czech background. I asked if it was hard putting up with the discrimination his people endured in this country.
    He asked me what I meant. I replied, “Well, I see so many businesses that that have signs that say ‘no checks’.”
    (Forgive me. The joke works better when spoken. My bad.)

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  49. RL Crabb Avatar

    Being in the middle has created a lot of problems for me. Life would be so much easier if I could just label myself a conservative or liberal. I’m just a rebel at heart, and I don’t trust either ideology as far as I can throw them. I believe the government has become an overbearing burden to its citizens, but there are times I’m glad they are there to squash the schemes of unscrupulous developers and gung ho capitalist con men.
    Reading the travails of the founding fathers leads me to believe they suffered much in trying to find a balance that worked for the greatest number of people. Washington and Adams would definitely fall into the conservative camp by today’s standards, while Paine, Franklin, and to some extent, Jefferson, would be called liberals. They had huge differences in their approach to governance, but somehow pulled together to give us a republic, if we can keep it. It’s a more perfect union, but will never be a perfect one. I imagine they are looking down on us now and smiling. Finding a balance has never been easy.
    These are still the times that try men’s souls.

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  50. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    Bob, my uncle used to pull that line in restaurants. He would look at the menu for a moment and then gravely ask the waitress/waiter “why am I not allowed to eat here?”
    The founding fellas had a lot of different opinions, but they did agree to a constitution that has been basically discarded for the rule of whatever. I also think the govt should protect us from cons and law breakers. Nowadays the govt takes my money and hands it to cons. I have no control. At least with private con men, I can smell a rat and refuse the bait. One of the biggest swindles was Raines at Fannie Mae. That b*****d should be in prison for life. Read the Wiki report on him and remember that Wiki is very left-friendly. It was the Dems that protected him and were deaf to clear warnings about the housing crises. The R’s were trying to protect the public and as usual, were called racist for their efforts. The best defence against con men is an educated and clear thinking public. But an educated and clear thinking public would also throw most of the people in govt out on their ears or into a cell.

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