Rebane's Ruminations
December 2010
S M T W T F S
 1234
567891011
12131415161718
19202122232425
262728293031  

ARCHIVES


OUR LINKS


YubaNet
White House Blog
Watts Up With That?
The Union
Sierra Thread
RL “Bob” Crabb
Barry Pruett Blog

George Rebane

"Marx and Engels never tried to refute their opponents with argument. They insulted, ridiculed, derided, slandered, and traduced them, and in the use of these methods their followers are not less expert. Their polemic is directed never against the argument of the opponent, but always against his person."  Socialism (1951), Ludwig von Mises

Polemics – the art or practice of argumentation; especially countering the beliefs and principles of another person.  I am heartened at the general progress we are making on the local blog posts and their attendant comment threads.  The number and intensity of ad hominem ripostes is definitely going down.  And often the comments are excellent and well written amplifications and/or redirections of the topic(s) introduced in the posts.

Also I have noticed that certain readers are beginning to make a difference between calling someone, say, an idiot, and calling their idea idiotic or referring to a general class of idiots holding such an idea – there is a difference.  Unfortunately others still cannot distinguish between the arguer and their argument, but here hope springs eternal.  To me it is a joy to read a churchillian retort whose entendres not only demolish the target argument, but in its more nuanced reading uncovers the camouflaged barb that encourages and even accomplishes a more penetrating mission – perhaps the essence of artful polemics and a joy to the attentive reader.

(As an example, my all-time favorite churchillian retort is said to have been given in Parliament to one of Churchill’s great detractors.  In utter frustration the man shouted, ‘Sir, may you either die on the gallows or of a vile disease!’  To which the great Churchill immediately responded, ‘Sir, that will come to pass only if I embrace your principles or your mistress.’)

No doubt there are simpletons on whom such literary labors are lost.  But let’s not lose heart when such encounters occur.  For then it is an entertainment to watch them miss the point while still claiming its grasp.

There also seems to be more than a little confusion on the notion of what constitutes ‘name calling’.  It is one thing to state that ‘John Doe is a (pejorative label).’  Clearly John Doe has been called a name and the caller seeks to attach to John Doe all the attributes, explicit and implied, that go with the pejorative label.

Then we have the case where a class of people is delineated with perhaps a number of spelled out attributes.  The class is then appended with a pejorative label.  No specific individuals are named in this exercise.  Upon reading the described screed, John Doe sees that he possesses some or all of the enumerated attributes, enough so that he may claim or by others be assigned membership in the class in question.

At this point John Doe has neither been identified nor called a pejorative name by the writer/speaker.  For one, John Doe might not agree that the pejorative label is a proper descriptor of the class, therefore there can be no attachment of the pejorative label to himself, no matter his membership.   And even if John Doe does accept the class label, it is then he who pins that pejorative to himself in the process of an extended association.  In any event, the original piece has attached no pejorative label to John Doe.  As appropriate, that task is left to subsequent efforts.

Posted in ,

68 responses to “An Invitation to More Artful Polemics”

  1. RL Crabb Avatar

    Scott, we’re probably closer on some of these issues than we might imagine. I would like to see a more conservative approach to the social problems, although I wouldn’t throw the baby out with the bath water. Unlike you and George, I still think a government safety net is important for the stability of society. I’ll be turning 60 in a few weeks, so I’ve been around long enough to see how these programs work or don’t work. I’ve seen people who could be productive waste away their lives on the taxpayer’s dime. Others have used the opportunity to rise above the welfare mentality to make something of themselves. Sadly, there are too many who have chosen the easy path to survival.
    The voters sent a message in November, at least in most places other than California. Even here, where Democrats reign supreme, the electorate is somewhat schizophrenic. We keep passing propositions that limit government’s ability to raise revenue, but elect legislators who don’t know how to balance a checkbook, much less a state budget.
    I’m hoping the new majority in the House will right some these problems. My fear is that they will continue the “gotcha” game typical of partisan politics. And I’m not encouraged by folks who say they want to follow the Constitution by passing a bunch of new amendments for the parts they don’t like.

    Like

  2. George Rebane Avatar

    Bob, on the other hand I am very “encouraged by folks who say they want to follow the Constitution by passing a bunch of new amendments for the parts they don’t like.” That is the process by which the Founders wisely made the Constitution a living and relevant basis for the governance of our Republic. I oppose strongly either 1) ignoring the Constitution, and/or 2) defacto modifications through arbitrary judicial preference, legislation, ordnances, and/or regulations that obviously violate the Constitution’s letter and intent.
    Do you have in mind another way to maintain the Constitution?

    Like

  3. RL Crabb Avatar

    In most cases, amendments are a vehicle to expand human rights. The right seems to have it the other way around.

    Like

  4. George Rebane Avatar

    Bob, I’m confused; can you cite a proposed amendment promoted by the right to constrict human rights?

    Like

  5. Steve Frisch Avatar
    Steve Frisch

    The proposed redefining of the 14th amendment to eliminate birthright citizenship.
    The proposed amendment to restrict gay marriage.
    The proposed amendment to declare that life begins-5 conception.
    The proposed amendment restricting a woman’s right to reproductive health care of their choice.
    Just to name a few 8)

    Like

  6. RL Crabb Avatar

    Repeal of the 17th, returning the election of Senators from the people to politicians, for one. There’s talk of tinkering with the 14th to deal with the anchor baby problem. Fixing the immigration mess through the legislative process would be more realistic. There’s always the flag burning amendment, which hasn’t been mentioned lately but would no doubt come up again if the right wingers could muster up the votes.
    Like I said, I don’t trust either side. Total power corrupts totally. no one is immune.

    Like

  7. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    Changing the constitution by amendment is provided for in the constitution and so, by definition has to be completely constitutional. It is, by design, very thorough and time consuming, so I’m not worried too much about any radical faction somehow shoving through anything the vast majority of Americans don’t want. How does defining human life beginning at conception (scientific fact) restrict human rights? Everyone knows the original need for the 14th is gone forever. It actually doesn’t need to be messed with if we had judges that followed established judicial tradition. I wasn’t aware of “gay rights” mentioned anywhere in the constitution as there are also no “polygamist rights” or “child marriage rights”. Anyway, gays can marry any time they want, always have and always will. They do, as do you and I, have to follow the law. It’s called equal protection. That last one is not any amendment I’ve seen proposed. Could you provide a web citation or reference?

    Like

  8. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    If we passed a constitutional amendment declaring that African Americans be counted as 3/5 of a human being for the purposes of the census would it be a restriction on human rights? Of course it would. It might be constitutional, but it would also constrict human rights.

    Like

  9. Scott Obermuller Avatar

    Are you proposing such an amendment, Steve? That part of the constitution was passed as a compromise. Balance – Middle of the road. Just what the lefties are after. Working together. There were extremists of course, that wanted the slaves to be free as full citizens, but they wanted it to be their way or the highway so the moderates ignored them and came up with balance. OK – I’m having fun here, but the real story is pretty revealing about the different views of the times. I would recommend every one to look up the full story about how that went down and why. It was actually quite a step forward for the slaves and a power limiting move to keep the southern slave owners from using the slaves to leverage power in Washington.

    Like

  10. George Rebane Avatar

    From where I sit –
    The only ones redefining the 14th amendment from its original intent is the left who see the addition of such illegal aliens as a godsend (gaiasend?) of new Democratic constituents. It has nothing to do with liberties that American citizens enjoy.
    Not aware of any proposed amendment that restricts the freedoms of gays to enjoy all the benefits of a consenting communal relationship that between heterosexuals is called ‘marriage’. The only desire is for them to pick their own labels for such a homosexual relationship and its participating partners. No infringement of freedoms is proposed.
    Montana seems to be the only state where such a ‘right to life’ amendment is proposed for their constitution in 2012. Since its inception and until Rowe v Wade, the country had laws prohibiting abortion without it being looked at as prohibiting freedoms, but the exercising the “state’s two legitimate interests for regulating abortions: protecting prenatal life and protecting the mother’s health.” Even RvW does a balancing act here between right to privacy and protecting the fetus during the third trimester. I do have to admit a conundrum here – when DOES the critter become a human? It’s clearly sometime before birth. My druthers are for a society where a woman’s life in peril or incest/rape/malformation/… are sufficient grounds to proceed toward abortion, with the decision, when possible, made in favor of the unborn human. This is complex conundrum of ‘freedoms’, and I may have to concede to you that yes, the conservatives are the ones who want to restrict the freedom to have gratuitous abortions for pregnancies resulting from gratuitous intercourse.
    “… woman’s right to reproductive healthcare of their choice.”??!! I’m not even sure I understand what that means, and most certainly I don’t think that there is any institution of such electable healthcare as a ‘right’. Is this more on the abortion topic?
    Flag burning amendment – yeah, that’s a bitch. We used to have a culture that prevented such desecration without the redress of law. But I guess there is no way to legislate that without also trampling on some real freedoms. And you’re right, we of the conservative bent are prone to get all frothy on that.
    Repeal of the 17th amendment is seen as an attempt to reduce individual liberties? Wow! We were a given a democratic republic through the Constitution. And the early progressives were able to use due process to do away with what may have been the last stave holding together the republic. Popular election of senators started us on the road to a pure democracy and away from states’ rights. The country embarked from a competitive environment of local governance to a national homogeneous amalgam which is seeing its last days now as the individual states go broke and become federalized. Popular democracies eat themselves through the Peter/Paul Principle. Our Founders knew that and provided a workable alternative that would preserve liberties. Repeal of the 17th by the original backers of big government changed all that.
    And now we argue 180 degrees out that just attempting to repeal that amendment would further abridge our already constrained liberties. We have come a long way indeed, and it is clear why every year we gleefully give up even more of our exceptional legacy.

    Like

  11. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    Speaking of flat taxes, surely we must have a flat tax, equal for rich and poor, that falls of every stock transaction.
    Why should buy and selling of stocks be any different that buying and selling milk or automobiles?
    I propose 25 cents on every $100 worth of stock traded, a mere 1/4 of 1%. Given that the NYSE runs upwards to $40,000,000,000 per trading day, it would generate $100,000,000 per day to help pay down the national debt. The rich would never pay at any higher rates than the poor. What could be fairer than that? I wonder why the news folks only speak of the volume of shares, and not what they are worth? Funny thing, isn’t it?
    BTW, if you have no gays in the military, and you are doing interrogations, you may miss a lot of non verbal stuff that someone with a keen snese of gaydar would be able to pick up on…

    Like

  12. Douglas Keachie Avatar

    The immigration problem can be solved simply. Make it illegal to hire anyone without a US of A passport, and make the penalties swift and sure, even for first time offenders. Must send copy of front pages of passport and a current photo to the Feds for approval within 15 days. Can keep worker until Feds say yea or nay.

    Like

  13. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Every one of the amendment I posted above was a real attempt to amend the constitution introduced by Republican lawmakers in the last 10 years. George may disagree with them, but then he does not see anything he disagrees with as a restriction of rights.

    Like

  14. Barry Pruett Avatar

    I’d like to see a cite to each proposed amendment to the constitution…

    Like

  15. Barry Pruett Avatar

    Actually, just these three
    The proposed amendment to restrict gay marriage.
    The proposed amendment to declare that life begins-5 conception.
    The proposed amendment restricting a woman’s right to reproductive health care of their choice.
    I am pretty sure the first one regarding the 14th Amendment was not a proposed amendment.

    Like

  16. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Go look them up. It does not matter what actual information is brought to you guys, you only believe what you want anyway–and disregard the rest. I have never seen one of you say, “Hey, I did not know that, perhaps I will change my mind”. That’s why this site is nothing but a bunch of useless self gratification for a bunch of small fish who lack the balls to go out and work on real solutions.

    Like

  17. Sarah H Avatar
    Sarah H

    Hey Steve ‘grant boy’ frisch by “work on real solutions” do you mean live off the government teat? LOL. I could search from here to doomsday for your “hey, I did not know that, perhaps I will change my mind” comments.
    Instead, all I can find is your “George, even though you lived through WWII IN THE WAR ZONE, started/ran more successful businesses than I can imagine, I still know more about what really happens in WWII and business” opinion pieces- can you say narcissistic?

    Like

  18. Barry Pruett Avatar

    “Hey, I did not know that, perhaps I will change my mind” if you provide me a cite of evidence. Pretty please.

    Like

Leave a comment