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September 2010
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George Rebane

This week I finished reading The Grand Design by Drs Stephen Hawking and Leonard Mlodinow.  I posted earlier on a review of their new book at โ€˜Evicting God โ€“ The Latest Attemptโ€™ which generated an interesting comment thread.

These are Galaxies!! 

Hawking and Mlodinow have a best seller on their hands (itโ€™s already number one in hardcover non-fiction), and fortunately the writing style is vintage Hawking โ€“ compact, simple, and to the point โ€“ that includes his occasional humorous injections.  The book is a first class, high quality production with generous use of lavish illustrations and the occasional cartoon that prevents us from getting too serious about the subject.  Actually, the subject is serious since H&M have nothing less in mind than explaining the ultimate nature of reality to us.

At the start our intrepid authors state that their objective is to answer these questions โ€“

Why is there something rather than nothing?
Why do we exist?
Why this particular set of laws and not some other?

And they give it a mighty try, arriving in the end at a point that is close enough for government work.  But along the way we learn so many things from such a short essay (the entire book is under 200 pages).  We are given a surprisingly thorough overview of the history of human thought about existence and the universe.  And even before that we are assured that โ€œphilosophy is deadโ€, and then have some pretty heavy duty philosophy poured over our heads for the remainder of the book.


We learn that โ€œclassical science is based on the belief that there exists a real external world whose properties are definite and independent of the observer who perceives them.โ€  The reader is then taken to the breakdown of Newtonian physics through very accessible views of 19th century science and its accompanying mindsets.  This serves as the introduction to a lucid review of the elements of relativity and gravity which reveal that space and time come together as space-time, and reality becomes very observer dependent.  But at this point the observer is still what you and I think of as an observer, and stuff still behaves like stuff ought to behave.

Things become squirrely when we get introduced to quantum mechanics and find out that what we get is a lot more than what we see.  Stuff no longer behaves like it ought to, itโ€™s no longer just here or there.  Stuff can be and literally is everywhere and possibly even everywhen, it all depends on the observer.  We find that discernible reality falls out of the particular observation process to which we subject stuff.

This is where it gets really squirrely, and our dynamic duo decides to take a pass.  We are told that stuff in reality exists everywhere (yes, the entire universe) in the form of a kind of likelihood wave (they spare us the intricacies of Schrรถdinger) of possibilities, some more stronger here than there.  And that spread out wave collapses into a more or less concrete thing in one place or at one speed when we take a good look.  The result is the reality that we perceive directly or through the readings of our measuring instruments.

Ever since Niels Bohr came up with quantum theory in the 1920s, people have been debating what really is the observation process that collapses quantum events.  Can instruments do it alone?  Does it require a critter also looking at the instrument?  What kind of critter will qualify โ€“ i.e. does it have to have what level of understanding of the goings on? And on, and on.  But H&M decide to skate past that little detail as they give us enough science to prepare us for M-theory โ€“ the current darling Theory of Everything (TOE), the holy grail of physics.  To an educated layman this book is definitely a page turner; but back to our knitting.

Along the way we have detoured through a little bit of the philosophy of science, and maybe even the philosophy of philosophy, which it turns out is anything but โ€œdeadโ€ as pronounced at the opening.  The big revelation here is that we donโ€™t ever directly perceive reality, as human beings we simply arenโ€™t set up for that.  If we see a bird fly, that bird is flying in our brain because there is no signal from our eyes reaching our brain that can be decoded by a third party into the image of a flying bird.

What our brain gets is a series of parallel neural signals that hit our visual cortex (at the back of your head), get spread out over an unknown configuration of neurons that talk to each other, and the configuration finally concludes that the image we are looking at is a flying bird.  But at the gitgo, in that unknown configuration of neurons there had to reside some prior apprehension of a flying bird that the incoming signals corroborated, then filled out, and then drove to complete the total dynamic of what we ascribe as the reality of a bird flying in our visual field.  That โ€˜unknown configuration of neuronsโ€™ is reality, a mental model of a scene that contains what we have learned to be a flying bird.  And we continue to learn and store a bazillion mental models of all kinds of things, happenings, memories, โ€ฆ .

That, dear reader, is a short description of what philosophers of physics and the cognitive sciences call model-dependent reality.  Itโ€™s the model that you have previously made, which takes in some pretty sparse observational data, that generates your reality.  It continually creates and refreshes the environment (universe) that you perceive and deal with.

In the sciences such models are usually collections of mathematical equations some of which may be embedded into algorithms (q.v.).  Newtonโ€™s theories of mechanics (how bodies rest and move), gravity, and light are such theories.  So are Einsteinโ€™s theory of relativity, and the various embodiments of Bohrโ€™s quantum mechanics.  But all of these are described or modeled as realities in different domains of mass, speeds, energy, time, etc.  You have to know which model to use when you start studying some aspect of the โ€˜real worldโ€™.  There was no single model, no TOE, that brought everything together and presented a single model that explained all possible observations โ€“ there was no single picture of โ€˜realityโ€™.

Then along came something called string theory that evolved into M-theory, and people declared it to be an authentic TOE.  M-theory could do such things as pull together gravity working over spans of light-years and spooky quarks that made up protons and neutrons.  It could also answer questions about how our universe began, and even more than that.  The M-theory model could even be teased to affirm that any number of universes could pop into being and snuff out after a while.  Since a gazillion universes of every type and sort could come into being, the authors tell us that that is exactly what has happened and is still going on.  Our own universe is just one universe in a cosmos that is populated by an infinity of universes.  Why is this claim important?

Well, this is where God (or Intelligent Designer for you sophisticates) comes in.  Any given universe looks and behaves according to its laws of physics and the constants (special descriptive numbers) that are embedded in the laws (math equations).  M-theory says that there are about 10^500 sets of unique laws of physics.  Thatโ€™s one followed by 500 zeros โ€“ a number bigger than even our current national unfunded liabilities.  And again, why is this important?

It turns out that our universe is of an incredible design in that the combination of laws and physical constants is just so that if you nudged even any one of the equations or constants just a skosh, this universe and life as we know it would not exist.  Any small change would yield a markedly different universe where the overwhelming odds are that no life could have come into being, let alone life that got smart enough to start asking questions like โ€˜why do I exist?โ€™  The burning question since at least the 1950s has been, โ€˜the probability that such an extremely unique universe could have happened by chance is almost nil, and every aspect of our life on earth reveals very special provisions and a special history that worked together to bring us all to the here and now, everything we see speaks of a purposive design, who is the designer and why was such a design implemented?โ€™

A lot of scientists were sanguine with the โ€˜obviousโ€™ explanation, but not everyone.  Their underlying thesis was that God does not exist, and if they could only look deep enough into their science, then they would see where God wasnโ€™t.  Now you donโ€™t have to have that driving motivation to do good science, but by the last half of the 20th century you had a lot better chance of getting tenured and government grants if you threw in that added aspect for your proposed research.

No matter, M-theory came along about 1990 or so, and its model allowed people to argue that a gazillion universes could exist and therefore did exist โ€“ i.e. in reality the cosmos is a multiverse.  And that meant that every conceivable type of universe with different laws and constants and histories could come and go.  If this is so, then itโ€™s almost certain that at least one universe such as ours would come along that would bear critters like us poking into the guts of what is, and voila! here we are (this is called the Strong Anthropic Principle).  No God need apply โ€“ period, end of story, next case please.

But, long before this point in the book, the astute reader recognizes that no โ€˜whyโ€™ questions are being answered, only the usual โ€˜howโ€™ questions of science.  The good professors Hawking and Mlodinow belong to the school that doesnโ€™t recognize that science is forever consigned to answering more and deeper questions of how something comes about.  Why questions belong to teleology, the part of philosophy that deals with the discovery of purpose.   Why questions are not the province of science โ€“ science canโ€™t answer why something happened, it can only tell us how it could happen.

And hereโ€™s more the rub, why requires sentience to lurk somewhere at the beginning of something, the beginning of, say, a causal beam.  And perhaps realizing that posing the questions in the โ€˜whyโ€™ form, and then backtracking through M-theory (the reality model) to a multiverse that could pop universes out of seemingly nothing, this model of reality would finally put paid to all this nonsense about God or Intelligent Design (ID).

However, smack dab in the center of the road to this happy conclusion are standing Occam with his razor (recently honed by Marcus Hutter 2005) and his pal Falsifiability (if there’s no way to disprove it, then it isn’t science), the final arbiters of what is science.  A multiverse of a gazillion universes that contrive to pop and fade from existence from nothing is at best a reality contrived for but to satisfy a single agenda item.  In contrast, ID is literally an infinitely simpler explanation both teleologically and probabilistically.  And Falsifiability is completely out of M-theoryโ€™s reach.  H&M posit an interpretation of M-theory that cannot today be taken as anything more than another patchwork collection of math models, that when properly applied can explain past observations.  But it can still make no testable predictions of things yet to be experienced in this universe, let alone in any other universe of the gazillions that people can infer through its lens.

Hawking and Mlodinow conclude their book with โ€“

If the theory is confirmed by observation, it will be the successful conclusion of a search going back more than 3,000 years.  We will have found the grand design.

IF indeed!  And will we then have found the grand design?   Perhaps, but in no case will we have resolved the Designer Question.  IF M-theory is confirmed as a reliable model of this universeโ€™s reality, and IF its capacity of generating a multiverse survives, then Iโ€™m afraid all we have done is discovered the next turtle in the stack of turtles on which the world metaphorically rests.  And as the old codger in the story admonished the young reporter, โ€˜Oh no you donโ€™t, you young whippersnapper, itโ€™s turtles all the way down!โ€™

At this point we could (but wonโ€™t) expand the discussion to a structured cosmos of hierarchical sentient and sapient designers wherein we in our universe may today be on the bottom layer, but maybe soon even that will change.  In any event, there doubtlessly are other advanced civilizations some of whom permeate our galaxy, and perhaps even our entire universe.  Maybe they can think thoughts that can meaningfully ask the Designer Question and understand its answer.  But we are not there yet, and in the interval we have to go with what weโ€™ve got.

So Professors Hawking and Mlodinow, great book and a nice try, but no cigar.  God gets to stay.

Posted in , ,

72 responses to “God Gets to Stay”

  1. Bob Hobert Avatar
    Bob Hobert

    Wow! Big ideas and big words. I feel fortunate to not be intellectual enough to care about M-theory. Maybe they are only trying to convince themselves. I’ll content myself with Occam’s Razor. Thanks.

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  2. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    This reminds me of a friend of mine who is an agnostic, dyslexic insomniac who stays up all night wondering if there is a dog.

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  3. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    Thanks George, that was a fun word trip. Now I need a nap.
    But seriously , I have found that the tension between the logical tautology and rhetorical tautology of who are we? and why are we here? provides me with the ability to have a meaningful conversation with God.
    And that’s all I need. Whether the toast I had for breakfast this morning came from an ID or a yet-to-be defined M-theory equation remains unanswered for now. And so I carry water for neither.

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  4. George Rebane Avatar
    George Rebane

    Well said MichaelA. Until He (again) says ‘I am here’, that’s about as good a plan as any.

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  5. Ron Krumpos Avatar

    In “The Grand Design” Stephen Hawking postulates that the M-theory may be the Holy Grail of physics…the Grand Unified Theory which Einstein had tried to formulate and later abandoned. It expands on quantum mechanics and string theories.
    In my e-book on comparative mysticism is a quote by Albert Einstein: โ€œโ€ฆmost beautiful and profound emotion we can experience is the sensation of the mystical. It is the sower of all true science. To know that what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and most radiant beauty โ€“ which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their primitive form โ€“ this knowledge, this feeling, is at the center of all religion.โ€
    E=mcยฒ, Einstein’s Special Theory of Relativity, is probably the best known scientific equation. I revised it to help better understand the relationship between divine Essence (Spirit), matter (mass/energy: visible/dark) and consciousness (f(x) raised to its greatest power). Unlike the speed of light, which is a constant, there are no exact measurements for consciousness. In this hypothetical formula, basic consciousness may be of insects, to the second power of animals and to the third power the rational mind of humans. The fourth power is suprarational consciousness of mystics, when they intuit the divine essence in perceived matter. This was a convenient analogy, but there cannot be a divine formula.

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  6. George Rebane Avatar
    George Rebane

    Good thoughts RonK. From my readings, almost all great physicists who have had parted curtains for us, tell of their experiences as being mystical and in some way transcendent.

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  7. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Interesting stuff. Getting specific, where does God’s involvement in property rights come from? Is it part of some cosmic equation?
    “Each of us has a natural right โ€” from God โ€” to defend his person, his liberty,
    and his property”.
    From the BTA

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  8. Mikey McD Avatar

    Paul, see 10 Commandments…

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  9. Ron Krumpos Avatar

    George,
    Heisenberg, Schroedinger, de Broglie, Jeans, Planck, Pauli, and Eddington were supporters of mysticism. A good reference is “Quantum Questions / Mystical Writings of the World’s Greatest Physicists,” edited by Ken Wilber (Shambhala 1984, 2001). I had read 40 books on physics, biology and psychology while writing my e-book, but am certainly not a scientist.
    Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar, Nobel physicist, in 1959 invited me to the University of Chicago’s Yerkes Observatory. He introduced me to mysticism and the universality of the Universe. Chandra once said “God is man’s greatest creation.” He wasn’t questioning God just people who shape God to their preferred image.

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  10. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    There are some pretty good ideas in the 10 C’s. But I don’t see the specifics about defending property.

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  11. George Rebane Avatar
    George Rebane

    RonK – yes, those and many more came to the conclusion that man is a transcendent critter, and what we see and can think of is but a very small fraction of what is.
    Paul – The Old Testament is full of the acquisition, defense, disposition, and husbanding of property with and without the blessings of God. It is treated there by the prophets (authors) as a natural function, therefore a natural right of humans. Its successful husbanding is one of the few legitimate ways the Bible acknowledges for accreting wealth. I suppose Bastiat derived it as a natural ‘God given’ right from there. Most certainly he worked it well into the minimum set of integrated rights upon which others could be built, and without which the addition of no others could be sustained.
    Do you have in mind an even smaller set that eliminates property rights yet gives basis for a beneficial and benevolent society of humans?

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  12. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    There are many. The Maidu, for example, for hundreds of years regarded the acquisition of property as a sign of poverty. Your wealth was determined by how much you gave away. As long as we frame our references to European post tribal history it’s pretty materialistic but humans have been on this earth a long time and, unless God is a modern invention for White post tribal cultures you would think also that other cultures in the history of man would be also blessed with so called divine instructions that may be quite different than messages that came from the nomadic tribes that are attributed as messengers of the Old Testament.

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  13. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    Paul, The Ten Commandments explicitly describe property rights. “Thou shalt not steal [obviously stealing implies ownership]. Do not covet your neighbors house…nor anything that IS your neighbors” [IS = ownership].
    Maidu’s- I believe humans to be inherently selfish. I don’t accept a belief that past cultures were freely altruistic or non-selfish by choice (without law/cultural law); the Maidu’s you describe are fantasy.
    This is not to condone the hoarders or miserly among us. It is simple to prove that property rights are a part of God’s law.

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  14. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Mikey
    I do not believe in the inherent selfishness of humanity. This topic is way beyond the chatter of a blog to explore. I doubt if the property rights of man is very important to whatever God is.

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  15. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    “I do not believe in the inherent selfishness of humanity.”
    Paul, I sincerely consider you a lucky man.
    My experiences (daily news, full prisons, ridiculous # of lawyers, all worldly relationships, books, business, churches, government, hate based religions, songs, movies, plays, etc) keep me from believing man is anything but selfish.
    I think God understood/understands that without basic laws (including property rights) man would run amok and chaos would ensue for eternity.

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  16. George Rebane Avatar
    George Rebane

    I cannot find any cultures, especially the Maidu, whose views on property ownership would make me want to trade places with them. But then again, I am only a child, student, and defender of western culture.

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  17. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Of course because you view property ownership as a God given right which is your belief system. I only brought them up as an example of other belief systems that have existed for thousands of years.
    Let’s follow this path for a bit
    God creates man who is inherently selfish requiring property rights laws, Therefore those laws become Gods laws. Am I on the right path to understanding this concept of Property Rights ?

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  18. George Rebane Avatar
    George Rebane

    In the Judeo-Christian tradition working for and retaining the fruits of your labor is not considered selfish. It is from such accretions that a free-willed inidividual can start demonstrating the direction, intent, and extent of his charity. And it is for such accretions that man will work to feed, shelter, and generally provide for his kith and kin, instead of going out to plunder what is not his.

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  19. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    I, like Paul, also do not believe that mankind is inherently selfish. I also don’t believe that mankind is intrinsically evil and must be shown the way to heaven. We are clothed in naked truth and beauty at birth, and some are lucky enough to have very little of that stripped away during our lives. Others, unfortunately, begin to train in evil early on, and so they are the ones who need our help finding the righteous path (once again) as adults.
    Western Culture has a split personality on good vs. evil. I’m not sure if the split is opening wider, or healing.
    George and Mikey, come with me to Burning Man in 2011 and I will show you intrinsic good and inherent unselfishness. I’m serious.

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  20. George Rebane Avatar
    George Rebane

    MichaelA – Rereading Paul’s comment, is it not he who posits a selfish man? I posit Man as having evolved into a survivable critter, however, you want to characterize him then. I do believe from study and being a parent, that the human child comes into this world as the embodiment of selfishness, subsequently being taught within his culture what the proper ways are to behave toward his fellows and the things around him.

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  21. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    “Mikey, come with me to Burning Man in 2011 and I will show you intrinsic good and inherent unselfishness.” Wouldn’t this be a selfish exercise? And what about the lifestyles and choices of the attendees in the days before and after the event?
    “God creates man who is inherently selfish requiring property rights laws, Therefore those laws become Gods laws.” God created man with free will and man (Adam and Eve) chose to dis-obey (sin against) God. ‘The fall’ required that God create structure (read laws; property rights). ‘We’ forced God to create laws by our selfish nature.

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  22. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    MichaelA and Paul, are your hearts not burdened by the hate which fills the daily headlines? The corruption/compulsion of governments around the globe and throughout history? The ability of our fellow man to lay an unloving finger on a child, spouse, elderly? Man’s propensity to indulge in vices? The greed/materialism present worldwide? An ever booming population of lawyers (present due to more disputes)?
    Is it not the acknowledgment of the aforementioned ills which require structure/code of morals/law? One of the most common first words in any language is “mine.”

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  23. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    George
    “In the Judeo-Christian tradition”
    Correct George. If I accept that qualification for Property Rights being inspired by God you may be right in speaking for hat group of people. What about the other 80% of people on earth? Many cultures and spiritual paths of inspiration do not necessarily share those thoughts. To make a statement such as “Each of us has a natural right โ€” from God โ€” to defend his person, his liberty, and his property”. and use that as a universal truth is a bit presumptuous to say the least if it’s intend it to be the word of “God” for those that are not part of that “tradition”

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  24. George Rebane Avatar
    George Rebane

    The other 80% of the people may choose or not to defend their property, give it away, or abandon it. But I do believe that even they have a natural right to defend their property should they so choose. I am not dictating their obligation to do so, and neither do I want them to interfere with my natural right to defend my property.

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  25. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    I have a problem with any political philosophy that uses as it’s credo statements that it’s “God’s” law. Who’s God? My God or your God or his or their God. More people have been slaughtered in the name of “God” than any cause of defense of land or liberty. Let’s keep “God” out of this.

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  26. George Rebane Avatar
    George Rebane

    That’s not a problem, please recall the subject of this post and, also, who directed the comment thread into examining the role of ‘God’ as a promoter/denier of property rights. The Bastiat Triangle of rights works with or without the insertion of God. Without God, it still represents the minimum set of mutually supporting and government guaranteed rights that has led to beneficial societies. The collectivists have laid down numerous trails of blood and tears when they used the power of the bayonet to organize societies on other principles. In the final argument the secular humanist can and should support the BT with fervor equal to the theist, simply because the BT is consistent with human nature.

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  27. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    Paul, to go down the road you now abruptly swerved to go down it would require that I accept that there is no God. My knowledge of The Truth makes turning down ‘your road’ impossible (futile at best). I was lead to The Truth via studying philosophy (Plato, Kant, Aristotle, Aurelius, etc). It became obvious that society could reach optimum functionality (peacefulness) by using the 10 commandments as a foundation (regardless of one’s ‘faith’). To expect a utopia to form based on the lyrics of John Lennons “Imagine”, for example, seems like a fantasy on steroids.

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  28. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    George wrote: “I do believe from study and being a parent, that the human child comes into this world as the embodiment of selfishness, subsequently being taught within his culture what the proper ways are to behave toward his fellows and the things around him.”
    I know what you mean George, I’ve raised (and continue to raise) 4 boys (men) myself. They are 24, 22, 9, and 5 yrs. old respectively. And yes, they are certainly the embodiment of a human tabula rasa, in terms of what is proper behavior.
    I was blessed with the sacred gift of watching all 4 of my boys descend the birth canal and pop out into the world all bloody and hungry and full of spunk. I observed their needs not to be selfish, but instead self-serving. There’s a big difference.
    I have worked very hard all of my life to make sure my inherently unselfish and intrinsically good boys, and now men, do not let their natural self-serving needs become adult selfishness. Lessons in service, compassion, and altruism are how we do it in our household, as I am sure is the case in yours as well.
    That’s the thing George, I think we are talking about the same thing, only from very different angles. One of the reasons I really enjoy this blog is because I truly believe it is a touchstone for moving the human experiment forward.
    “Selfishness implies the intention to serve oneself, hence knowledge of what one stands to gain from a particular behavior” Frans de Waal

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  29. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    Mikey wrote: “To expect a utopia to form based on the lyrics of John Lennon’s ‘Imagine,’ for example, seems like a fantasy on steroids.”
    Can’t speak for Paul, but I have to agree with you there. However, you capitalized The Truth later on, which troubles me since everyone’s Aunt Mable makes The Perfect Apple Pie: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth
    I was raised an Episcopalian and Mormon simultaneously, so you’ll have to excuse my theological ennui. I ended up crafting my own spiritual path which is a mix of Christian-Buddhist theosophy. Take it or leave it. And I don’t really care what you believe, as long as your beliefs don’t involve car bombs, suicide vests, rapture parties, or other dangerous and demonstrative spittle.

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  30. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    Mikey wrote re. my Burning Man 2011 offer: “Wouldn’t this be a selfish exercise? And what about the lifestyles and choices of the attendees in the days before and after the event?”
    The exercise would be no more selfish than attending a Giants game. Trust me on this.
    Mikey, check out this Bloomberg video…I am a co-founder of the BRC municipal airport and have been involved with the Burning Man project for almost 2 decades–you and George would be distinguished guests at 88NV: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yh21xPCqkeA
    http://www.airspacemag.com/flight-today/burning_man_airport.html
    http://207.137.4.5/88nv.jpg

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  31. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    Mikey wrote: “MichaelA and Paul, are your hearts not burdened by the hate which fills the daily headlines?”
    Again, can’t speak for Paul. But yes, my heart is burdened. And I seek to forgive at every turn, though it is very hard.
    M.

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  32. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Let’s look at a couple of the Ten Commandments and see how well they have been adapted by God fearing capitalists
    Though shall not kill except in defense of thy material possessions or being ordered by thy government or by designing weapons that will be used to kill innocent civilians. Or by knowingly selling a product that addicts and kills people such as tobacco .
    Though shall not steal unless you are in a business that takes taking advantage of those weaker than you for a profit. Look at Americas manifest destiny or European colonialism or ripping off the defenseless so corporate execs can make billions.
    From the writings of Peter Weiss in his play Marat Sade
    “And so we stand here and write into the declarations of the rights of man the holy right of property
    And now we find where that leads
    Every man’s equally free to fight fraternally and with equal arms of course
    Every man his own millionaire
    Man against man, group against group
    in happy mutual robbery.
    And ahead of them the great springtime of mankind
    the budding of industry and one enormous financial upsurge ”
    As living creatures bound to this earth our survival depends on our self interest to insure we eat and live in reasonable comfort, health and safety. How we choose live beyond that perhaps is our greatest challenge as human beings. I believe we are inherently good but we live in a time when materialism is our inflicted quest and greatest temptation.
    Yes John Lennon Imagine….. how different it could be if we truly lived by the Ten Commandments. I agree it’s a pretty good start on the path to whatever it’s all about.

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  33. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    George
    The conversation steered in this direction when I asked the question about how the God, which you say is still on his feet after the interrogation of The Great Design relates to the God referred to in the doctrines of the Bastiat Triangle Alliance. I was interested if that was the same God that has an interest in the defense of Property Rights as described. For my convenience you have removed him from the statement helping me to understand that you believe this is a right that is installed in the human animal and is not to be confused with any sort of divine equation.
    Michael
    I don’t believe in utopia. The job of an artist is to help us see with our heart. John Lennon does that to me.
    Mikey
    If we were neighbors we would get along fine. I enjoy conversing with you.

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  34. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    Michael A “I observed their needs not to be selfish, but instead self-serving. There’s a big difference.” I think we are speaking semantics. Selfish and self-serving are interchangeable words in my lexicon. I need you to paint more on this canvas before I can grasp your definition (and difference) between the two words.
    Michael A: I will review the burning man links when time permits. It is refreshing to see someone such as yourself passionate about an ‘event.’
    Paul: Would be a pleasure to break bread and discuss this wild world with a neighbor such as yourself.
    I am grateful to George for managing a platform to discuss such heavy, important and too often ignored topics.

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  35. George Rebane Avatar
    George Rebane

    Perhaps this might help.
    โ€˜Self-servingโ€™ connotes an attribute of a behavior. An act can be self-serving while it also has other attributes like โ€˜helpful to othersโ€™, โ€˜magnanimousโ€™, โ€˜beautifulโ€™, โ€˜bashfulโ€™, โ€˜overtโ€™, โ€ฆ . It is an attribute, for instance, on which all business transactions and, therefore, capitalism is based. There need be nothing immoral, hurtful, or unethical per se for us to engage in self-serving activities, because the overwhelming proportion of our behaviors are also self-serving. In the large, self-serving is topical.
    โ€˜Selfishโ€™, on the other hand, is understood to be an attribute of character. Selfish behavior gets for itself at the cost of denying others something that in the large is considered their โ€˜fair shareโ€™ within the framework of a zero-sum enterprise. Selfish implies looking out for number one at a (potential) cost to others. Selfish is more or less a long-lasting stigma that is attached to someone, in that sense it has some permanence and, therefore, may be viewed as a synoptic attribute.

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  36. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    Thanks George. I will have to noodle on this for a bit.

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  37. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Indeed. I see your point. Then what restraints need to be put on capitalism to restrict the ability of the selfish to attain unlimited riches and power? Is is not a form of stealing to take advantage of the less capable or educated or defended for the purposes of obtaining unlimited wealth ? Under the Ten Commandments what is the definition of stealing?

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  38. George Rebane Avatar
    George Rebane

    Paul, I think I see where you want to take this. If it is a zero sum game, then the smarter will always be able to get more of the pie. But I think we (conservatives and collectivists) have a wide gulf in our meanings for ‘steal’. It appears that your definition involves anything that violates the ‘just allocation’ of wealth, both created and yet to be created, under a system of justice that may be peculiar to you.
    You seem to be coming back to a notion of ‘unlimited wealth’ that is an amount which is somehow immoral to own even if its creation, ownership, and deployment lifts many more to a higher quality of life. Given that the dumber and more ignorant are not capable of creating such wealth (see L. von Mises on this), why would one use the established notion of envy (see Kahneman & Tversky) to stop wealth creation and ownership at some arbitrary level so that some arbitrary lower quality of life can be imposed more evenly? That trail of tears seems to be the eternal quest for socialists and communists.

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  39. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    So do you prescribe any restrictions on the accumulation of personal wealth and any moral and perhaps spiritual standards by which it can be gained?
    I am trying to establish some kind of earthly definition of stealing as prescribed in the Ten Commandments which, according to some Christian advocates is the word of God. Can you give me any help on this?

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  40. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    “what restraints need to be put on capitalism to restrict the ability of the selfish to attain unlimited riches and power?” Capitalism must not be allowed to use government as a club and competition must be present.
    The beauty of Capitalism is the abundance of choices it provides EVERYONE. One is free to choose how to participate (or not) in a capitalist society while benefiting from the efforts of all who choose to be productive.

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  41. George Rebane Avatar
    George Rebane

    First, please understand that I am a student (of von Mises, von Hayek, Hazlitt, Friedman) and devotee of what is often pejoratively called โ€˜trickle downโ€™ economics. Not everyone can instigate and operate a wealth creating enterprise, and even a smaller proportion will be qualified to do so as technology advances. But once such an enterprise is created, then its salutary form should be to maximize the trickle. I donโ€™t know enough to prescribe a rule or algorithm that restricts accumulation, and would not spend time worrying about it โ€“ it is against my nature to do so. Collectivists concern themselves with such pursuits. I am more concerned with the ability to effectively distribute enough of such wealth as to improve the largest number of lives to the largest extent (this is called achieving a Pareto optimal solution).
    The progressives have revised the history of the so-called robber barons of late 19th century. But a more accurate interpretation of their effect on society shows that the barons were a wholesale blessing on the landscape and the people they enabled. Today we cannot turn or lift our eyes or hands without basking in their heritage, their trickle down heritage. And that process, while under renewed attack from the โ€˜this time we can make it workโ€™ collectivists, is still thankfully giving us an ever abundant life. I donโ€™t know how long it will last, but I can guarantee that it will not be shortened for the lack of restrictions on the ability to accumulate wealth.
    And now the โ€œearthly definition of stealingโ€ (I think you meant โ€˜proscribedโ€™ in the Ten Commandments). To me, and I believe to the tribes of Israel, stealing means simply taking surreptitiously something that belongs to another in a manner that it denies its owner the future benefit of it. (Taking something overtly with the threat of force is called robbery or plunder.)
    The ownership of yet-to-be-created wealth is an eternal conundrum for the socialist, he simply doesnโ€™t know what to do with it other than knowing that its free and unregulated creation, let alone its subsequent redistribution, goes somehow against his very grain. It is all so unequal, and therefore it must be unjust, maybe even stealing was involved. He would just rather not see that wealth come into being, than have to confront it with his bag of tools – a philosophy which he knows to be dysfunctional โ€“ to sort things out later. Better to stop it in its tracks and muddle on.

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  42. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    George
    Could you point me to some examples of the Golden Age of Capitalism that thrived under the Free Market Economy policies that you believe in. Anything contemporary that you like?

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  43. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    George, Channel Six had a show last night about the “Tank Man”. Remember Tiananmen Square 1989? Anyway, they expanded the show past wondering what happened to the TM, and in my humble opinion, one of the bravest, more important people in the 20th Century, on to China and its embrace of capitalism.
    Perhaps Paul could watch the show and many of his questions would be answered. It is amazing to me that Red China is trying to out capitalist America.

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  44. George Rebane Avatar
    George Rebane

    Paul, rather than becoming your research librarian, I would ask you to google ‘captains of industry or robber barons, history’ and go to as many of the links there as you can tolerate. The point here is that our school system only teaches the robber baron part of business history with little copy given to the Boss Tweed episodes of government corruption that ran concurrently (and still does). While not puritans or saints, these business men gave rise to the great corporations that would employee millions of workers of very limited mental capacity or propensity for risk, and in the process give them the wherewithal for raising their families and leading rewarding lives. And what these barons or captains did with their spare cash has funded entirely new dimensions of our American culture the counterparts of which don’t exist anywhere else in the world. It was they who created the environment which allowed the little guy to flower like he never had before in history.

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  45. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Actually George I meant to ask about countries and governments and when in history they supported the type or free market enterprise you appreciate so much. It will give me an idea of what to expect if our country goes in the direction you’d like it to.

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  46. George Rebane Avatar
    George Rebane

    Paul, there are no precedents to the Great American Experiment. The closest we may come before our own revolution was the laissez-faire capitalism that was practiced in the Protestant Low Countries (and what later became northern Germany) since the Renaissance. It allowed that piece of foul weather, mud-soaked Europe to become the flower of trade, commerce, art, and thought.

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  47. Michael Anderson Avatar
    Michael Anderson

    Man, it’s hard to keep up with this thread. I don’t necessarily disagree with any of the directions, and it seems like we are wandering different paths that are heading to the same destination.
    Mikey D.: The passion of the ‘event’ is a social and economic experiment called the Burning Man Gift Economy (BMGE)[Note: this is not the barter economy for which it has been mistakenly portrayed.]. The only way this BMGE works is if there is a more realistic and functional complex capitalist society wrapped around it, creating goods and wealth that people can pack into their planes, trains, cars/trucks/RVs, bikes, backpacks and bring to the ‘event.’ But once there, everything you have is everything you have. No vending, no buying, no commercial activity onsite allowed at all, except for ice sales which benefit Gerlach high school girls basketball, and coffee which Burning Man LLC profits from (very low margins for sure).
    George: Thanks for doing the heavy lifting on the selfish/self-serving differentiation. I couldn’t have said it better, and I agree with you 100% that the self-serving attribute of our behavior is innate in human beings, is key to human existence and survival, and that the unique character of the American story has attracted people from all over the world who share, honor, and emphasize self-serving behavior (which obviously requires a lot of hard work)[Calvinism?]. This creates wealth and abundance, which builds great societies and cultures, from which many benefit.
    Paul: Sorry, didn’t mean to diss JL. I know you’re not a utopianist, and you’re right about art visioning our hearts, though I would also our souls to that. I was addressing Mikey D.’s claim that you sought utopia, sorry to drag you and Lennon into it.
    Michael A.

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  48. John Stoos Avatar

    Michael said you all were having quite a discussion over here ๐Ÿ™‚
    As an alternative to “Imagine” and Hawkins, may I suggest a visit to the Book of Beginnings, Genesis.
    There is just the first eleven chapters you find the answers to the tough philosophical questions that cannot be properly answered without it. “In the Beginning God created the heavens and the earth” sets up the proper Creator/creature relationship. Man is created in the image of God with God saying, “let us make man in our own image.” Theses familiar verses provide the worth of man and the solution to the age old problem of the one and the many with God revealing Himself as an eternal Trinity!
    The dominion mandate is given so we know that people are a good thing and that we are to be good stewards of the creation that God has graciously given us. Next we have the fall of man into sin which accounts for the tension discussed above over how to distinguish serving actions [under the dominion mandate] from selfish actions caused by sin. In other words, we are all made in the image of God and under the curse of sin. Finally, we are given the solution for sin when God declares that the seed of the woman, Jesus will crush the head of the serpent, Satan.
    That is all in the first three chapters and then we learn about the nations of the world, the diversity of the animals in creations, the judgment of God with the flood and a new beginning with Noah. All of that before we ever get to Abraham and any of the history we usually discuss.
    Now here in America, we have written off or ignored almost all of those first eleven chapters with even most Christian making more excuses for them rather than proclaiming the foundational truths found there. Doing so leaves us without the foundation of rock that Jesus said we would need to handle the storms of life or the difficult questions of philosophy [see Matthew chapter seven].
    Hope this helps and a big thank you to George for starting such a stimulating discussion.
    John

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  49. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Thanks everyone for the lively discussion. I have much to say to add to this but it will have to wait till I have more time.
    George, now that I understand that the expansion of the American experiment, during what I guess is the 19th Century before inconvenient anti-monopoly, workers safety, environmental and child labor laws imposed government restrictions on free enterprise, is the model for what you would like to see in the future I have to ask where is all the free land, resources and cheap immigrant labor that fueled the Manifest Destiny that you admire going to come from in the future?

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  50. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    To go along with George’s Skylon post I would suspect the cheap labor to come via our very own poorly educated masses and ever-open boarders with Mexico.
    re: child labor/enviro/safety I ask: who was responsible for the supply and demand of child labor? In a free market are not a society’s value structure enough to save the planet [no one is forced to buy from or work for a polluter]? Isn’t it in a business owners best interest to protect his employees/investments from harm? Were not the robber baron’s using government as a club to ‘create’ monopolies?
    It is easier for me to accept a nanny government during the early stages of growth (think 3rd world) but, once a country steps up on Maslow’s pyramid the powers of government should subside and give way to a more enlighted and invested citizenry.

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