Rebane's Ruminations
September 2010
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George Rebane

Tonight I ‘discussed’ Prop23 with Steven Frisch on KVMR-FM 89.5.  News director Paul Emery did his best to moderate the forty minute discussion which turned out to be something else.  Steve was in his element and smooth as silk.  I felt like I was pushing a car with three flat tires up a hill.  Paul’s questions were broad and general, each of which would require a considered dissection and response.  Wrong.  It required the recitation of a well-rehearsed litany of ‘facts’ that were anything but.

But that doesn’t matter in a half-hour give-and-take with no clock on the respondents or systematic order of ‘but and rebut’.  To be fair, we were all trying out an unknown format in real time, and to an extent we were all finding our way.  But as a professional environmental lobbyist, Steve definitely appeared to fly a very familiar route.  I discovered that going second to a laundry list of practiced propaganda is a losing proposition.  Do you address each of the just stated ‘errors’, or just ignore what the other guy said and give your own pitch, regardless of the question?

Doing the former is what my training and instincts compel, but that takes excess time because you have to first again state the other’s original error before you can refute it.  I could have just said ‘Bullcrap, none of that is true!’, but mom unfortunately taught me different rules for polite company.  Going first with your claims is definitely the preferable high ground.  Taking an independent tack would wind us up talking past each other with the listener having no way to actually evaluate the points advanced.  But listening to the Barbara Boxer – Carly Fiorina debate that followed, ‘damn the torpedos’ would definitely have been the correct order of the day.

Afterward, as I was trying to screw my head back onto my shoulders, I was puzzling on how many times Steve actually does this every day or week.  My goodness, the man is truly a pro who spouts this stuff effortlessly.  And here I had prepared a ¾ inch stack of tabbed notes in my lap from which I tried to find the exact citation that would blow his last ‘glib’ right out of the water.  Sorry Rebane, this is not a well-tempered battle of reason and logic, but the recitation of quick lists that pass for facts – you lose. 

Before yielding the field, I do want to point out that voting YES on Prop23 would do nothing to “roll back” our air quality laws as claimed by the left.  Everything we have in place, stays in place.  Also, the so-called 500K “clean tech” jobs and “12,000” companies that are supposed to be in danger of being lost if AB32 is not fully implemented, is beyond hogwash.  Those jobs exist now without all the new taxes and regulations, are already in place, and will remain at their profit making companies.  They were labeled ‘clean tech’ jobs through an arbitrary and politically dictated procedure that makes sausage stuffing look like assembling microchips in a clean room.  (more at NC Media Watch here and here.)

No doubt about it Steve, you were slick: Frisch – 1, Rebane – 0.

Posted in , , ,

40 responses to “Knife at a Gunfight”

  1. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    George, you are not a politician. Steve is. When you must scmooze or lose you get real smooth. You are in nedd of a one page, 14 suze font, talking point paper.

    Like

  2. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Thanks to Steve and George for participating in the discussion. Hear is a link if you missed it. http://audio.kvmr.org/podhawk/index.php?cat=Election%20News%202010

    Like

  3. Mikey McD Avatar

    George, very well done. You made it clear that AB32 is a job killer and that to suggest otherwise is a failure in logic and lacks compassion for our fellow man. Your conclusion expressing the idiocy of taxing, regulating and restricting our liberty as a means of improving our economy was priceless- right on! You also did a great job of showing all that the NGO’s/CARB have to lose thanks to globull warming lobbyists from NGO’s/CARB etc. Notice how the globull warming crowd (now defeated by science) is using emotions around fabricated health concerns and green tech (12,000 jobs big whoop) to sell their snake oil and save their funding. You did forget to mention that the unemployment rate was under 5% when AB32 was signed… now it is above 12%!
    http://www.cato.org/special/climatechange/cato_climate.pdf

    Like

  4. Jeff Pelline Avatar
    Jeff Pelline

    George,
    The pro-Prop. 23 contingent needs a new spokesman. LOL.

    Like

  5. Barry Pruett Avatar

    FUE – Is that “thoughtful commentary” or nasty?

    Like

  6. Jeff Pelline Avatar
    Jeff Pelline

    No, it’s sound advice. You better act fast. BTW, my name is Jeff.

    Like

  7. Barry Pruett Avatar

    George…when you deal and debate with the left, you must be ready for misrepresentations and sometimes flatout lies. In my opinion, “bullcrap” is an entirely sufficient answer. Frisch’s “facts” about the jobs that AB32 will create is as ludicrious as how many jobs Obama has “saved.” It is an unmeasureable quantity…easy to say and impossible to rebut with logic and reason. I am sure a “study” from an environmental 501(c)(3) that is really a lobbying firm came up with the numbers…no doubt with taxpayer dollars. It is the system that needs to be changed…

    Like

  8. Todd Juvinall Avatar
    Todd Juvinall

    Barry, was the FUE slamming George? Seems the FUE is not as pure as he says we all must be.

    Like

  9. Dixon Cruickshank Avatar
    Dixon Cruickshank

    Whats funny is I’m not sure what they think they will win by killing CA

    Like

  10. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    Well, I thought it was a respectful debate.
    Paul did a good job as the facilitator and
    moderator. Both George and Steve made
    good points and responded well with counter
    points.
    The only problem I had was the 97% statement,
    which was debunked long ago, and misled the
    entire audience.

    Like

  11. Anna Haynes Avatar

    George, a heads-up – I emailed you some questions this morning to try to clarify your “no consensus” assertion during the KVMR exchange.
    (just want to make sure you don’t overlook them)

    Like

  12. Russ Steele Avatar

    Mr King,
    Maybe you can explain the 97% to Anna. We have all tried and failed. For her it is one of those AGW religious questions for which there is only one answer, her answer.

    Like

  13. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    “Mr King,
    Maybe you can explain the 97% to Anna. We have all tried and failed. For her it is one of those AGW religious questions for which there is only one answer, her answer.”
    No thanks! I don’t want her showing up at
    my house and going all “Discovery” on me.

    Like

  14. Anna Haynes Avatar

    Fear not, D. King, what I am is curious; and (IMO) propensity-to-violence and curiosity are about as mutually exclusive as any two mental states can get.
    Still looking forward to hearing back from Dr. Rebane…

    Like

  15. D. King Avatar
    D. King

    Thanks Russ! 😦

    Like

  16. George Rebane Avatar
    George Rebane

    JeffP – I appreciate those sentiments, but I think you credit me with way too much. As I demonstrated in my discussion with Steve Frisch, I don’t think I am or have ever been much of a spokesman for Prop23. I am an old guy who has seen a lot of life from a perspective that’s a bit different than most, and all I do is interpret from that point of view what I see and have been taught. If that jogs a new thought or a smile in those who read these pages or hear my words, I am fulfilled. There are many other local voices who can do better credit to the ideals that we share. You will find your spokesman among them. Again, thanks for your visits and comments, and for keeping me in mind.

    Like

  17. Jeff Pelline Avatar
    Jeff Pelline

    George,
    Reading your comments over the years including the ones directed at me you are a passive/aggressive personality. Something for you to keep in mind.

    Like

  18. Kettle Avatar
    Kettle

    Hey Jeff, this is Kettle. You’re black.

    Like

  19. Barry Pruett Avatar

    Jeff…instead of coming over here and lobbing grenades, why not actually particiate in the debate? How will AB32 create more jobs than it will destroy?

    Like

  20. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    George, first, thank you for the opportunity to engage on an important public issue, and thanks to Paul for making the forum at KVMR available for public service.
    I want to preface my statement with the comment that I find your ideas fascinating, your mind sharp and engaging, your personal history incredibly powerful in its story of familial perseverance, and your thought process simultaneously challenging and provocative. All traits I highly value and appreciate.
    I was sincerely disappointed that, when we had a chance to talk in person we were quite nice to each other as people are wont to be in public, but when you got on the radio you attacked my motivations, implying that I do what I do for personal financial gain.
    I can tell you, in all sincerity, that I do what I do because I believe in it, because I want to do good in this world, and that I consider myself lucky to be able to work in an arena that I love and think is important. In short, like many people, even you when you choose a particular field, I work where my interest and talent lies, I don’t chose an interest for the mammon it provides.
    Your behavior was rude. It was something I would never do, particularly in public or on the radio. It was a violation of our rules of engagement for the event. I believe that your opening actually damaged your credibility because it was perceived by the public as irrelevant an unwarranted.
    With that said, I sincerely appreciate your effort to meet an talk, and remain open to such a meeting of minds in the future. We gain nothing when we do not engage in dialogue, and I remain committed to dialogue as a means of solving vexing public issues.
    Thank you for your efforts and for the opportunity to speak out in public on the thought we both strongly hold.

    Like

  21. Mikey McD Avatar

    George, your comments were not rude. The hypocrisy of the delusional (only the delusional believe that taxing, regulating and restricting our liberty = means of growing our economy) is astounding. It is hypocritical for a pro-AB32 lobbyist to bash the anti-AB32 “big Texas oil companies” and then say pro-AB32 tax payer funded lobby organizations are off limits.

    Like

  22. Barry Pruett Avatar

    Hammer meet head.

    Like

  23. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Mikey McD, I would expect no other personal behavior from you, you have exhibited it here from your first post.
    In your response we see the real you. No outstretched hands, not attempt at civility, no attempt at a meeting of the minds, not desire for dialogue or reconciliation. Just the typical fanatical insistence on domination, power and control. You sir, are no gentleman. The more you talk the more people see the real you.
    George, however, is a substantially more civilized man.

    Like

  24. George Rebane Avatar
    George Rebane

    Steve, thank you for the kind words. I too was happy that we could at last meet and air our differences on live radio. As I say in the post, I thought you were an excellent exponent of the political ideology that you represent.
    Re ‘violating our rules of engagement’ – I violated no such rules. In a civil and polite manner, I merely pointed out that you have a financial interest in the implementation of AB32. You are a professional lobbyist for all such frictional regulations and government spending. And it was clear that had I not informed the listeners of this, they would have thought that our interests in the points we were promoting were equally dimensioned. Paul had no intention of making that statement and you would not have disclosed it. Yes, I might have taken a hit from certain listeners in pointing that out, but that hit would not have been in my credibility since the revelation was true and proper to reveal in such a promotion of opposing views.
    Re your accusation that I impugned your motives for being there, that is an illogical conclusion, and that I did not do. If a listener equated that only promise of financial gain brought you there, then you and your organization confirm that in their minds. I am happy that you are able to earn your living doing what you believe, but that is an independent factor in such exchanges and must needs be disclosed. I made no accusation that your public views are just for hire, but I am more than a little bit curious why the disclosure of the twin motivations – ability to air your deeply held beliefs and promoting your financial wellbeing – would be troubling to you since a large part of your argument for opposing Prop23 highlighted the self-interested involvement of corporate backers whom you also accused of an invidious desire to continue harming the health of their California customers. And in that forum you wanted to represent yourself as ONLY representing your deeply held socio-political beliefs??
    I and those who also believe that increasing government’s role in our lives through added diktats and taxes see the collective roles that you both promote and professionally enjoy as being a continuous and growing attack on not only our freedoms and lives, but also on the lives and wellbeing of our children and grandchildren. We hold deeply that your social philosophy, no matter how sincerely held, is demonstrably dysfunctional. And it would not surprise me if your feelings are reciprocal. The debate in these pages and wherever we meet involves nothing less.

    Like

  25. Barry Pruett Avatar

    I should have said head meet hammer. I am sorry Steve, but Mike nails it here. It is completely and highly relevant to point out the agenda of the messanger in order to show the public why he is saying what he is saying. How is your stating who supports Prop 23 different than others pointing out who opposes it.
    Advice…I would ignore the efforts to frame you and SBC – it gets you off message. Also, it was a pleasure to meet you earlier this week.

    Like

  26. Mikey McD Avatar

    George, it would appear that the lobbyist who I promised I would not comment directly to weeks ago (and he promised and has since broken his promise) is now offended that I stuck up for the personal attacks he made against you. If only we could stay focused on solutions instead of breaking promises. The pro AB32 lobbyists are always quick to push the discussion away from real solutions and toward personal attacks. I wonder why?
    The light that is shined on hypocrisy is never met with a smile.

    Like

  27. George Rebane Avatar
    George Rebane

    Mikey – agreed, and I appreciate your support. I will be having a lot more to say about this between now and November. The left’s presenting themselves only as representatives for goodness, light, and the purity of mother’s milk is absurd. The truth of their expanded gains from implementation of their ideology should be exposed at every turn. Keep the faith.

    Like

  28. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Well I guess time will tell here who was off message and who was on.

    Like

  29. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    Yes time will tell. If I may quote from Ecclesiastes 1:4 — “Men go and come, but earth abides.”

    Like

  30. Brad Croul Avatar
    Brad Croul

    George, you lost me at your radio introduction of yourself when you decided to give Steven Frisch’s “introduction” for him and jumped right trying to trying to make him out as just another bureaucrat feeding off the taxpayers. I heard the moderator ask for your introduction, not Mr. Frisch’s introduction.
    What do Valero and Tesoro own in California? Valero owns a refinery in Benecia, CA, and Tesoro owns a refinery in Martinez. Millions of people are downwind from these refineries.
    Everyone knows that pollution kills. Numerous examples of deaths due to smoke, smog, etc. are known. Google London Killer Fog, http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=873954 .
    The more people living in congested environments the more we need stricter controls on pollution from noise, exhaust, sanitation, etc.
    AB 32 should go forward, not backward with Prop. 23. AB 32 needs work but I am for less pollution even though I realize that there is an economic cost. I would rather see more nukes powering high speed rail, trains, etc. than more diesel trucks running around and refineries polluting the air and water.
    If we got the freight back on the trains and got rid of all the semis running around we might not have to be so stringent with the off highway diesels.
    Thanks for making a place to talk about these issues.

    Like

  31. Mikey McD Avatar

    Now we are talking…. Ecclesiastes 10:2
    “A wise man’s heart directs him toward the right, but the foolish man’s heart directs him toward the left.”
    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ecclesiastes%2010:2&version=NASB

    Like

  32. Mikey McD Avatar
    Mikey McD

    Is anyone here contending that the passage of a proposition equates to it’s morality?
    The passing/failing of a proposition does not speak to it’s morality or impact on personal liberty.
    What does it say about the character (or lack thereof) of a man to side with an enslaving proposition (increased taxes, decreased personal liberty)?
    What does it say about the character (or lack thereof) of a man to side with a proposition that will knowingly put their neighbors out of work?

    Like

  33. Steven Frisch Avatar
    Steven Frisch

    Hey, isn’t that the same quote that led to left handed people being burned as witches?
    Watch out all you southpaws, the righties are coming after you, and when they are done they are going after the redheads, the green eyed, and the lispers.

    Like

  34. George Rebane Avatar
    George Rebane

    Well Mikey, your biblical research might have solved the riddle of why the left is attempting to expunge all mention of God from our culture and heritage. But we do have to be careful of Steve’s warning. Maybe we can just start at the other end with the lispers.

    Like

  35. George Rebane Avatar
    George Rebane

    Brad, please check out the information on this website and maybe sign up also for their newsletter. See also their Newsletter #3.
    http://archive.constantcontact.com/fs010/1103123347934/archive/1103498077438.html
    I made my point clear about the Steve Frisch intro here and in ‘Once more into the Breach’.

    Like

  36. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    George
    What do you know about the CARB Awareness Group? Who are their sponsors? Can you verify their research. Do you know who is funding the group. I’m very leery of a website that has no person or organization taking responsibility for research and action. There is not one name in the newsletter. In addition, the link to the first newsletter does not work, What do you know about them George?

    Like

  37. George Rebane Avatar
    George Rebane

    Not a clue Paul. Got the link in an email. Have they published stuff that is blatantly false?

    Like

  38. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    George
    If you google CARB Awareness Group you find the origin site killcarb.org (Don’t confuse it with killcarb.com which is diet site} You find this http://killcarb.org/2010010601-adhocgroup2carb.html
    This also has no contact or management information and is” Dedicated to Putting an End to a Rogue State Agency”
    However if you google the contact information (CIAMO) from the open letter they ask people to sign and send in you go to this http://www.cioma.com/public/info/contactus.html which is the lobby site for the California Independent Oil Marketers Association, an oil industry lobby group.
    There’s nothing illegal about what they are doing but I think you should know that you are using that information as a fact resource that is compiled and distributed by professional oil industry lobbyists. It makes me wonder why they don’t include that information on the newsletter that you promoted on you’re site. They really don’t have anything to hide by saying “This information was compiled by oil industry researchers and paid for by our members” At least we’d know the source of the information.
    I get a kick out of researching this stuff.

    Like

  39. George Rebane Avatar
    George Rebane

    Thanks Paul for digging that out. I agree that it’s important to know who funds information sources to ascribe credibility when there is no independent/alternative source of the same information. Very few people think to be as meticulous when it is a governmental unit (e.g. CARB) or NGO that stands to gain from the information that it issues (e.g.the impact of the Scoping Plan for implementing AB32). Disclosures of financial benefits from your promotions are important.

    Like

  40. Paul Emery Avatar
    Paul Emery

    I’m sure there are sources that provide independent analysis that can be looked at. I never trust a source that won’t put their name on their documentation. You can go to the internet and find justification for any position on any subject. We are all instant experts.

    Like

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